15225 replies to this topic

[Investment novice]

Hi. Fantastic recollection. It's a matter of time before wieses legal crap is checked out with costs... And he will be liable with his buddies....
Thinks if he also sues snh he can be envisaged as a victim.
He is a business savvy charlatan.. And now will have to pay the piper....
It's a matter of time......

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[DayTraderDad]

Found the article:https://www.business...teinhoff-2019-5

 
Insert from the article:

"While Wiese hold 90% of Upington, other Steinhoff directors including Jooste hold 10%.
Upington also purchased 315 million Steinhoff shares as part of a capital raising,
for which it received a “underwriting commission” of €39.7 million.

[DayTraderDad]

According to the article Wiese had 86% ownership in Upington. Can you guys remember some time back there was some article that Jooste was also involved in Upington could it be that he was the owner of the other 14%? Any thoughts on this!!

[Investment novice]

For sure...

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[LarryK]

The question is whether he was also a wrong doer?

This also means that in any settlement, if Wiese ever gets something, which will probably be a percentage of what he lost (maybe about 1% to 3%), and even if for argument's sake more, all this compensation will be claimed in court by the ex-creditors, who apparently are using some strong articles in the loan agreements to have any proceeds form any compensation (if ever happened) to be redirected to themselves.

And otherwise if Wiese loses his case, he will still have to pay Steinhoff 's legal costs (while if he wins, any thing he gets will be claimed by the creditors anyway).

Court cases are a lose lose situation for Wiese.

The only and best route for Wiese is to buy back his shares, and support Steinhoff in claiming compensations from the wrong doers and their insurances.

[Tom]

This also means that Wiese will be spending a lot of money on court cases that not only have very little chance in any success in South Africa, because the South African law doesn't agree that a shareholder (including previous one) can sue other shareholders (suing Steinhoff means actually suing its shareholders), so not only Wiese's chance in any success in South Africa is nearly zero, but also now there are at several lending institutions that want the award for themselves.

 

So Wiese is wasting his money on legal fees for money he can't get (not through the South African courts), but also if he ever gets something it will be taken by his the former creditors.

 

If I were Wiese I would seriously drop my cases against Steinhoff, buy back the shares, and support Steinhoff with cheaper loans (e.g. from his money in Shoprite), and wait till Steinhoff recovers, which accordring to their financials, they do have a strong underlying retail business and just need to refinance their CVA unfairly and abnormally expensive debt on a market price interest rate.

 

This also means that in any settlement, if Wiese ever gets something, which will probably be a percentage of what he lost (maybe about 1% to 3%), and even if for argument's sake more, all this compensation will be claimed in court by the ex-creditors, who apparently are using some strong articles in the loan agreements to have any proceeds form any compensation (if ever happened) to be redirected to themselves.

 

And otherwise if Wiese loses his case, he will still have to pay Steinhoff 's legal costs (while if he wins, any thing he gets will be claimed by the creditors anyway).

 

Court cases are a lose lose situation for Wiese.

 

The only and best route for Wiese is to buy back his shares, and support Steinhoff in claiming compensations from the wrong doers and their insurances.

[Tom]

Wiese’s R59bn Steinhoff claim under attack

https://www.moneyweb...m-under-attack/

 

This also means that Wiese will be spending a lot of money on court cases that not only have very little chance in any success in South Africa, because the South African law doesn't agree that a shareholder (including previous one) can sue other shareholders (suing Steinhoff means actually suing its shareholders), so not only Wiese's chance in any success in South Africa is nearly zero, but also now there are at several lending institutions that want the award for themselves.

 

So Wiese is wasting his money on legal fees for money he can't get (not through the South African courts), but also if he ever gets something it will be taken by his the former creditors.

 

If I were Wiese I would seriously drop my cases against Steinhoff, buy back the shares, and support Steinhoff with cheaper loans (e.g. from his money in Shoprite), and wait till Steinhoff recovers, which accordring to their financials, they do have a strong underlying retail business and just need to refinance their CVA unfairly and abnormally expensive debt on a market price interest rate.

Edited by Tom, 23 July 2020 - 08:21 AM.

[Investment novice]

There is a desperation from the institutions following the sa case that was defended. As I see it this challenge ensures that any settlement made by snh goes to the lending institutions. However if snh defends the case against wiese then this too falls away and the institutions then have to go after wieses companies.
Think we should see wieses case being defended soon as precedenrlt has been set. The reminder of the claims will be settled with cents to a Rand.
Wiese is in for significant more pain. Don't envy him or his family....

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[DayTraderDad]

Wiese’s R59bn Steinhoff claim under attack

https://www.moneyweb...m-under-attack/

This is now really going crazy. So the institutions lend money to Upington then now want they money back from Steinhoff? Surely they lent the money to Wiese, he was the chairman so they should sue the directors not the company. Good news these claims are falling apart. If I recall correctly it was institutions that forced the share sale.

[Tom]

Wiese’s R59bn Steinhoff claim under attack

https://www.moneyweb...m-under-attack/

Edited by Tom, 22 July 2020 - 03:39 PM.

[Tom]

https://www.forexliv...-rates-20200722

"In March, the U.S. Fed lowered the fed funds rate to 0% for the first time since financial crises."

 

 

 

https://www.iol.co.z...ession-51238024

"Another rate cut may be on the cards as SARB ponders recession"

Edited by Tom, 22 July 2020 - 01:28 PM.

[Investment novice]

Agree. It's a matter of time now.....

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[andi222]

Steinhoff needs to apply for these loans which are about 0% interest rate, in order to replace their most expensive loans:

 

Especially:

 About 3.8 billion euros (Second Lien) loan on 10.75% and

 About 2.99 billion euros loans on 10%

 

While the other loans are less urgent, but still can be refinanced at a much cheaper rates, which are:

  About 2 billion euros (First Lien) on 7.8% interest.

  About 2 billion euros on mostly less expensive rates

 

Agreed Tom, I'm pretty sure they will apply for these loans. Lot's of people underestimate the impact the drop in global interest rates has for Steinhoff. Also the loans from Government.

 

Refinancing the loans in 2021 will be the final step for management. 

 

Once these legal issues are solved I see great potential. I really really hope they can just get a global settlement anytime soon now. 

[Tom]

EU leaders reach 'historic' deal on €750 bn coronavirus recovery package after marathon talks.

 

Steinhoff needs to apply for these loans which are about 0% interest rate, in order to replace their most expensive loans:

 

Especially:

 About 3.8 billion euros (Second Lien) loan on 10.75% and

 About 2.99 billion euros loans on 10%

 

While the other loans are less urgent, but still can be refinanced at a much cheaper rates, which are:

  About 2 billion euros (First Lien) on 7.8% interest.

  About 2 billion euros on mostly less expensive rates

Edited by Tom, 21 July 2020 - 11:43 AM.

[Tom]

EU leaders reach 'historic' deal on €750 bn coronavirus recovery package after marathon talks.

[DayTraderDad]

Guys, whats your expectation on EBITDA and EBIT for the Half year results?

 

I think we will see a major spike in EBITDA due to IFRS 16 implementation and better performance of the core operations

 

I think the total EBITDA from continued operations will be between 500 and 600 Million € for HJ 1 2020

 

Unfortunately I see the EBIT at between 300 and 400 Million €. So overall we will be in another loss making position for HJ1 2020 due to tax (100 Million and finance cost of around 500 Million)

 

But we shouldn't forget that we should focus on the cash flows for now and here I think we will be positive.

 

The Interest expense will lie at around 500 Million €. However this will be capitalized.

 

Again these are my personal predictions. What do you guys expect for this coming HJ results?

Hi Andi,

 

My estimated EBITDA is Euro between Euro 580 mil  and Euro 620 mil. I agree with your EBIT but for me it does not matter much the real financials will be without Confo in the future.

[andi222]

Guys, whats your expectation on EBITDA and EBIT for the Half year results?

 

I think we will see a major spike in EBITDA due to IFRS 16 implementation and better performance of the core operations

 

I think the total EBITDA from continued operations will be between 500 and 600 Million € for HJ 1 2020

 

Unfortunately I see the EBIT at between 300 and 400 Million €. So overall we will be in another loss making position for HJ1 2020 due to tax (100 Million and finance cost of around 500 Million)

 

But we shouldn't forget that we should focus on the cash flows for now and here I think we will be positive.

 

The Interest expense will lie at around 500 Million €. However this will be capitalized.

 

Again these are my personal predictions. What do you guys expect for this coming HJ results?

[Tom]

During the financial year 2019 the management took the sum of 34 million Eruros, that's 20 million Euros salaries, pension and expenses, plus more than 14 million Euros bonuses (that's more than 70%).

All that despite the shareholders continue to lose and suffer because of the depressed share price.

 

And that was only the 2019 Managing Directors’ remuneration.

[Tom]

During the financial year 2019 the management took the sum of 34 million Eruros, that's 20 million Euros salaries, pension and expenses, plus more than 14 million Euros bonuses (that's more than 70%).

All that despite the shareholders continue to lose and suffer because of the depressed share price.

[Tom]

The management shouldn't get any bonus before the share price improves.

And they should get the shares bought from the market and as part of their salary that's already there (therefor not in addition to it).

Edited by Tom, 19 July 2020 - 11:51 AM.