15225 replies to this topic

[Investment novice]

CW and MJ made millions as entrepreneurs and setting up, acquiring businesses. Somewhere along the line they realized that there wealth can overnight quadruple if the shares you hold increases in value. They grew the company, and pumped the share. This was an over valued entity, not a pyramid scheme.
Seeing the likes of tongaat and others recently... How many companies can stand up to a forensic audit and demonstrate zero accounting gymnastics. I work for a multinational too... You would be surprised on what is defined as a boundary.. Correctly I may add. Any whispers on accounting gymnastics will surely have the share being dumped.
The reality is that share valuation methodologies will be in question and the appropriatness. Whether you're an fcp or mda... Perception off a sound business model drives value. And MJ and CW were artists of the highest caliber in painting the picture.

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[DayTraderDad]

difference is...

 

SNH was just  a pyramid scheme and  this is exactly how how it works....unlike your company

 

Pyramid was built a good 10 years ago.

 

Guy at top is the crook, all below are the suckers falling for it....

Polly can you give a example of the pyramid scheme?

Because the person you say paid diamonds for fakes was in fact the chairman of the pyramid scheme!!!! I agree with LK its impossible to commit fraud with just one person or a few persons in a company with such structures.

[Investment novice]

A new thought... Could there be a situation where creditors delist the entity. Buyout shareholders at 100-200% r4-5 today's price. And then resolve issues in background. Refinance debt and walkway with all entities and property portfolio. Realist individual entities etc.....just a thought...
Many years before this gets resolved....
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[Polly]

I work as a general manager for an international company.

There’s no way the guy at the top can direct/manipulate all of this without anyone knowing.
There’s too many checks and balances. There is also normally an anonymous whistleblower system in place, yearly anonymous staff feedback surveys, etc etc etc

Sorry I can’t see this being 1 guy or a handful of folks alone.

difference is...

 

SNH was just  a pyramid scheme and  this is exactly how how it works....unlike your company

 

Pyramid was built a good 10 years ago.

 

Guy at top is the crook, all below are the suckers falling for it....

[Investment novice]

I work as a general manager for an international company.

There’s no way the guy at the top can direct/manipulate all of this without anyone knowing.
There’s too many checks and balances. There is also normally an anonymous whistleblower system in place, yearly anonymous staff feedback surveys, etc etc etc

Sorry I can’t see this being 1 guy or a handful of folks alone.

Agree Larry, many more people implicated to some level, many system failures, and many more directors and their insurance companies as well as professional malpractice insurance companies going to have to pay in to settle. And to daytaders point... Shareholders quantification of loss in itself is going to be difficult to identify. If in any event share value erosion due to shareholders fear and dumping.....this is many years worth of thumbsuck and proportionment of liability.

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[LarryK]

I work as a general manager for an international company.

There’s no way the guy at the top can direct/manipulate all of this without anyone knowing.
There’s too many checks and balances. There is also normally an anonymous whistleblower system in place, yearly anonymous staff feedback surveys, etc etc etc

Sorry I can’t see this being 1 guy or a handful of folks alone.

[DayTraderDad]

This is non kosher at several levels...
Self enrichment through profiteering from property transactions is an example. This is not pure accounting practice. Examples similar to this will be the downfall of MJ and friends. Left to be seen who also profited. CW?.
Accounting practice is also a fair point though but I have limited to comment on.. Especially where debt was transferred between companies to reduce tax obligations. And create interest revenue flows for other entities.
Fortunately due to all the write downs it may be unlikely there would be a tax issue.. Maybe not.
Perpetration occurred at many levels.
Pic involvement through Jay Naidoo. How has this not come to the fore as yet, this is independent to PWC. How was the pwc investment case motivated. Prof len on the board could not see the wood from the trees with this. I think the entire board are in trouble at steinhof. Surely they have documented engagements on the Pic acquisition of a large chunk of snh. All of these questions point to a long and drawn out legal issue where shareholder will rightly be able to claim back from the directors, their insurance companies, auditors, related business entities. Etc.. Snh themselves will be required to hase afte perpetrators.
MJ.. And his friend JN... And anyone else smart, foolish enough to have been on gravy train... Need to be weary now.... Everyone may be on trial. After 3000 pages worth of reporting

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Yes a very important point being missed is all the shareholders that are crying and want money where the very same that enjoyed the rise of the share with the aid of the irregularities. While the share was flying higher and higher no one complained, also even when buying Conforama, Poundland and MF all becoming very profitable quickly simply piled in there was no end to the future growth. Just think the high premium that director decided to buy MF and shareholders supported.

[Investment novice]

This is non kosher at several levels...
Self enrichment through profiteering from property transactions is an example. This is not pure accounting practice. Examples similar to this will be the downfall of MJ and friends. Left to be seen who also profited. CW?.
Accounting practice is also a fair point though but I have limited to comment on.. Especially where debt was transferred between companies to reduce tax obligations. And create interest revenue flows for other entities.
Fortunately due to all the write downs it may be unlikely there would be a tax issue.. Maybe not.
Perpetration occurred at many levels.
Pic involvement through Jay Naidoo. How has this not come to the fore as yet, this is independent to PWC. How was the pwc investment case motivated. Prof len on the board could not see the wood from the trees with this. I think the entire board are in trouble at steinhof. Surely they have documented engagements on the Pic acquisition of a large chunk of snh. All of these questions point to a long and drawn out legal issue where shareholder will rightly be able to claim back from the directors, their insurance companies, auditors, related business entities. Etc.. Snh themselves will be required to hase afte perpetrators.
MJ.. And his friend JN... And anyone else smart, foolish enough to have been on gravy train... Need to be weary now.... Everyone may be on trial. After 3000 pages worth of reporting

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[DayTraderDad]

Hi DTD,

 

Regarding the "smoke" around Sept 2017, MJ consistently deflected this and provided what seemed a plausible counter argument.  He convinced those around him that there was no fire, and hence the smoke was actually not smoke.  To their eternal damnation, they chose to believe him.

 

There was most certainly a fraud perpetrated at Steinhoff.  However, this was through MJ and a few of his cronies at Steinhoff (eg.  Head of European Operations), but mostly between MJ and outside parties (see my previous post),

 

There is a significant distinction between fraud/corruption on the one hand, and being gullible / too trusting / not skeptical enough on the other hand.  I am even willing to go so far as to say the Board and CW, Johan Van Zyl, Jay Naidoo, Steve Booysens, etc could be accused of possible gross incompetence and/or negligence.  But never fraud!!!!

 

CW and the rest were as much victims as the VEB shareholders.

 

Best Regards

Captainfrom82

Hi Captain,

 

I still believe there was no blatant fraud/corruption in Steinhoff the alleged over inflated profits, dodgy deals that looks like not at arms length etc. were all done with accountants blessing with the possible exclusion the MJ string of companies trading with Steinhoff.

 

The fact that Deloitte complained should be sufficient for any astute person to question in view that there was more information coming to light from Germany so I am sorry there was smoke!!

 

How can it be possible that property was being sold then bought back etc surely the money involved would have required director approval. Now I ask you if you a director and I kept on trading property would it not put questions in your mind?

 

The real fraud is the poor accounting standard that allows different accountants to interpret it as they wish to the expense of the shareholders. Just go into the internet and see how many cases of poor auditing are there.

 

What I find strange in one hand you say CW is a tough businessman then on your last note you say he could be accused of possible gross incompetence and/or negligence.

 

So basically what you say is MJ has the ability to reduce ones ability and financial skills???

Edited by DayTraderDad, 12 March 2019 - 01:31 PM.

[Captainfrom82]

Hi Captain,

It is disappointing for all those people to say things like "bolt out of the blue" other had no clue when there was already issues that the German were investigating and Deloitte already brought this to the attention of management in September 2017 so which is the part that they did not know.

A person must be a very strange director if cannot smell the smoke because as early as September 2017 the fire was already burning not to mention how can director not query buying a business that is not making money and in a very short time becomes very profitable.

Further what type of CFO is a person if all you do is look at spreadsheets!!!

I agree with MJ the reason why the share collapsed was due to poor decision by the board that did not calculate properly the outcome of deciding to start a new investigation at the time of announcing results.

But I agree with Bubble there must be a few worried people in Stellenbosch at this very moment.

 

Hi DTD,

 

Regarding the "smoke" around Sept 2017, MJ consistently deflected this and provided what seemed a plausible counter argument.  He convinced those around him that there was no fire, and hence the smoke was actually not smoke.  To their eternal damnation, they chose to believe him.

 

There was most certainly a fraud perpetrated at Steinhoff.  However, this was through MJ and a few of his cronies at Steinhoff (eg.  Head of European Operations), but mostly between MJ and outside parties (see my previous post),

 

There is a significant distinction between fraud/corruption on the one hand, and being gullible / too trusting / not skeptical enough on the other hand.  I am even willing to go so far as to say the Board and CW, Johan Van Zyl, Jay Naidoo, Steve Booysens, etc could be accused of possible gross incompetence and/or negligence.  But never fraud!!!!

 

CW and the rest were as much victims as the VEB shareholders.

 

Best Regards

Captainfrom82

[DayTraderDad]

Hi Bubble,

 

My sense is that you are incorrect.  I think that you are seeing nails all over the place because all that you have is a hammer.

 

I understand about the whole Stellenbosch University brotherhood/clan culture.  That is inevitable and happens across the world at most Universities.

 

I must tell you, I know CW personally.  I have spoken to him a few times in 2018 and  I do not for a moment, not even a second  though believe CW is guilty of corruption or fraud.  He is a tough businessman, and in being a businessman he may have taken some decisions that may seem immoral you others.  This is business!  But nothing fraudulent, illegal or corrupt!

 

CW had far too much a stake to want to get an additional boost by turning to fraud.  You would never risk $10000 to try and win $100.  It is the same with him.  I believe him when he said that it was a "bolt out of the blue".  To him it was.  He was not expecting anything like this, and right up to the morning of 5 Dec 2017, he tried to seek a solution with MJ to admit the errors.  At the time he did not know just how deep the rabbit hole went. 

 

The same logic would apply for JW.

 

I cannot comment for BLG, but I would be extremely surprised if he were overtly involved in an illegal action.

 

Steve Booysen knew nothing because no one suspected anything.

 

Prior to the FY2017 financials, Deloitte had picked up on the issues previously but signed off anyway after chatting to MJ.  Things changed In 2017, when the investigation in Germany really brought various matters to light.  Suddenly Deloitte had far more evidence, and approached Steve Booysens as Head of Audit and Risk with the evidence.  The rest is history.

 

Best Regards

Captainfrom82

Hi Captain,

It is disappointing for all those people to say things like "bolt out of the blue" other had no clue when there was already issues that the German were investigating and Deloitte already brought this to the attention of management in September 2017 so which is the part that they did not know.

A person must be a very strange director if cannot smell the smoke because as early as September 2017 the fire was already burning not to mention how can director not query buying a business that is not making money and in a very short time becomes very profitable.

Further what type of CFO is a person if all you do is look at spreadsheets!!!

I agree with MJ the reason why the share collapsed was due to poor decision by the board that did not calculate properly the outcome of deciding to start a new investigation at the time of announcing results.

But I agree with Bubble there must be a few worried people in Stellenbosch at this very moment.

[Captainfrom82]

The family is from Wilgenhof male residence in Stellenbosch. CW/Jacob W/Daniel vd M/Ben la G included in this list and many others in senior/exec position in SNH. I expect many being implicated, if PWC report is detailed enough(which it should be). The brotherhood and mafia is strong there.

 

That is why Steve Booysen never knew anything until the end, he studied in Pretoria. (Outsider)

 

Hi Bubble,

 

My sense is that you are incorrect.  I think that you are seeing nails all over the place because all that you have is a hammer.

 

I understand about the whole Stellenbosch University brotherhood/clan culture.  That is inevitable and happens across the world at most Universities.

 

I must tell you, I know CW personally.  I have spoken to him a few times in 2018 and  I do not for a moment, not even a second  though believe CW is guilty of corruption or fraud.  He is a tough businessman, and in being a businessman he may have taken some decisions that may seem immoral you others.  This is business!  But nothing fraudulent, illegal or corrupt!

 

CW had far too much a stake to want to get an additional boost by turning to fraud.  You would never risk $10000 to try and win $100.  It is the same with him.  I believe him when he said that it was a "bolt out of the blue".  To him it was.  He was not expecting anything like this, and right up to the morning of 5 Dec 2017, he tried to seek a solution with MJ to admit the errors.  At the time he did not know just how deep the rabbit hole went. 

 

The same logic would apply for JW.

 

I cannot comment for BLG, but I would be extremely surprised if he were overtly involved in an illegal action.

 

Steve Booysen knew nothing because no one suspected anything.

 

Prior to the FY2017 financials, Deloitte had picked up on the issues previously but signed off anyway after chatting to MJ.  Things changed In 2017, when the investigation in Germany really brought various matters to light.  Suddenly Deloitte had far more evidence, and approached Steve Booysens as Head of Audit and Risk with the evidence.  The rest is history.

 

Best Regards

Captainfrom82

[DayTraderDad]

Conforama news: https://www.capital....nforama-1330928

[DayTraderDad]

There must be a couple of Wilgenhoffers sweating now.

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Yes and I think Andreas Seifert might be also sweating!!!

[Bubble]

There must be a couple of Wilgenhoffers sweating now.

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[DayTraderDad]

I read that the PwC report contains 3000 pages and 125 files interesting.

[DayTraderDad]

*STEINHOFF CEO TO MEET WITH S. AFRICA REGULATOR FSCA MARCH 12 *STEINHOFF CEO SAYS RETAILER TO APPEAR IN S. AFRICA PARLIAMENT *STEINHOFF SOUTH AFRICA PARLIAMENTARY HEARING TO START MARCH 19 *STEINHOFF CEO DU PREEZ TELLS REPORTERS IN CAPE TOWN

[DayTraderDad]

 

Agree. Useless(or corrupt) auditors, give Management the freedom to do what they do.
 
Do not forget the useless market commentators/experts that punted SNH, and then become experts on how long it will take for SNH to finally sink.
 
Simon Brown gave SNH 3 months after Dec 2017, the same guy(I recall) that punted Tongaat 1 year ago @ R100.

 

Haha I agree!!! I still recall how the media and analyst were so positive on SNH and MJ was viewed as a superman.

[Bubble]

   

And another one, now the Steinhoff policeman PwC also in the news:

https://www.accounti...aundering-clues

For me the corruption and fraud is allowed because of greed for money. If an audit firm get a fixed rate to do the audit why would they have the incentive to dig deep and loose money!!!

 

Agree. Useless(or corrupt) auditors, give Management the freedom to do what they do.

 

Do not forget the useless market commentators/experts that punted SNH, and then become experts on how long it will take for SNH to finally sink.

 

Simon Brown gave SNH 3 months after Dec 2017, the same guy(I recall) that punted Tongaat 1 year ago @ R100.

[DayTraderDad]

 

And people still blame management yet everywhere accountants are failing: https://www.fin24.co...nances-20190311

 

And another one, now the Steinhoff policeman PwC also in the news:

https://www.accounti...aundering-clues

For me the corruption and fraud is allowed because of greed for money. If an audit firm get a fixed rate to do the audit why would they have the incentive to dig deep and loose money!!!