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#10241 DayTraderDad

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 06:06 PM

This explains it very well: https://info.legalzo...ctor-21758.html


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#10242 DayTraderDad

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 05:08 PM

A question for a legal expert....

Through steinhof many years of misrepresentation the company was listed and owned by shareholders..... The management directors and auditors failed in their duty... And were fraudulent misrepresenting the value of the company....

A shareholder lawsuit would be against the company or against those culpable. Any lawsuit against a company would in fact be against shareholders themselves.... As the shareholders would be the ultimate loser....

Do we have legal opinions on liability....


Also... A companies valuation... Nav.. And share price differs.... How would you sue for loss of value... Where the shareholders actions themselves impact share price...

How would you quantify liability?.

Be good to get a sense of the legal strategy...

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I am not a lawyer but since the post of Captain82 and Polly about legal stuff I did research and my findings are: (Google there is miles of information.)

 

1 - A Shareholder appoints and dismissed directors to/from the board and are the proportional owners of the company and by suing the company they are in fact suing themselves.

2 - A shareholder cannot claim/sue from a company unless the director or company refuses to take action against the responsible directors that committed the fraud. The fact that SNH commenced the PwC unrestricted investigation declared to the Hawks information about possible irregularities this mean SNH new management took all the precautions to ensure the responsible director are charged. Further SNH already said they will put claims against the responsible parties this means the company is doing what is legally expected of then thus shareholders have no possibility to do the same claim because its not possible to get two charges for the same case.

3 - A very similar case as SNH is Royal Ahold which the end result VEB sued Deloitte. See the link from SEC: https://www.sec.gov/...ss/2004-144.htm

Of importance is the statement by SEC.

"The Commission did not seek a penalty from Ahold because of, among other reasons, the company's extensive cooperation with the Commission's investigation. Ahold self-reported the misconduct and conducted an extensive internal investigation. On its own initiative, Ahold expanded its internal investigation beyond the fraud at U.S. Foodservice and the improper joint venture accounting to analyze accounting practices and internal controls at seventeen operating companies. Ahold promptly provided the staff with the internal investigative reports and the supporting information and waived the attorney-client privilege and work product protection with respect to its internal investigations. Ahold also made its current personnel available for interviews or testimony, significantly assisted the staff in arranging interviews with, or testimony from, former Ahold personnel located in the United States and, of even greater importance, abroad. Ahold promptly took remedial actions including, but not limited to, revising its internal controls and terminating employees responsible for the wrongdoing."

4 - For me the outcome is that SNH being a victim of fraud committed by the CEO and director will put a claim against the responsible parties and shareholders only benefit from increased asset of the company from recoveries which will make the share recover.

5 - VEB claim from Deloitte settle in 2018 but fraud committed in 2000 to 2003. Long time to get any money back. 

https://www.veb.net/...loitte/algemeen

 

According to the company act directors a accountable for their action read the article on the link below it is very clear:

http://www.mondaq.co...panies Act 2008


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#10243 Polly

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 04:07 PM

A question for a legal expert....

Through steinhof many years of misrepresentation the company was listed and owned by shareholders..... The management directors and auditors failed in their duty... And were fraudulent misrepresenting the value of the company....

A shareholder lawsuit would be against the company or against those culpable. Any lawsuit against a company would in fact be against shareholders themselves.... As the shareholders would be the ultimate loser....

Do we have legal opinions on liability....


Also... A companies valuation... Nav.. And share price differs.... How would you sue for loss of value... Where the shareholders actions themselves impact share price...

How would you quantify liability?.

Be good to get a sense of the legal strategy...

Sent from my SM-G950F using Sharenet Sharechat mobile app

after 15 months of pumping by all and sundry , this is the mother of all question you should have asked 15 months ago before you invested!! :)  :)  :)

 

and now when the **** about to hit the fan, this is appropriately raised??? Remember the gold for fake diamonds?? 

 

Im no lawyer but this share like i already said could go up or could go down depending on this outcome. Too risky for anybody in their right frame of mind to invest in this rubbish... But if you did , your D day is arriving very soon...

 

 

Thats all i have to say brother, good luck....


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Trading is one of the only fields where genuine con artists/scammers will urge you to “be careful of con artists/scammers.”


#10244 Investment novice

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 03:44 PM

A question for a legal expert....

Through steinhof many years of misrepresentation the company was listed and owned by shareholders..... The management directors and auditors failed in their duty... And were fraudulent misrepresenting the value of the company....

A shareholder lawsuit would be against the company or against those culpable. Any lawsuit against a company would in fact be against shareholders themselves.... As the shareholders would be the ultimate loser....

Do we have legal opinions on liability....


Also... A companies valuation... Nav.. And share price differs.... How would you sue for loss of value... Where the shareholders actions themselves impact share price...

How would you quantify liability?.

Be good to get a sense of the legal strategy...

Sent from my SM-G950F using Sharenet Sharechat mobile app
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#10245 LarryK

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 12:39 PM

Nice bump up
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#10246 DayTraderDad

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 12:06 PM

So looks like Lionel you’re right about the slow poison.

Interesting about the purchases. Lots of 35000’s and 20000’s and even a sneaky 400,000ish in there.
But on the other there’s been offers of over 2000,000 shares...

 

Not so sue of the slow poison interesting developments low volumes after yesterdays selloff.


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#10247 LarryK

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Posted 06 March 2019 - 02:52 PM

So looks like Lionel you’re right about the slow poison.

Interesting about the purchases. Lots of 35000’s and 20000’s and even a sneaky 400,000ish in there.
But on the other there’s been offers of over 2000,000 shares...
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#10248 DayTraderDad

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Posted 06 March 2019 - 11:53 AM

 
"After the meeting held Tuesday with the unions, the management of the furniture brand, whose financial situation is difficult, said it did not consider a social plan or sale of stores.
For several days we had been waiting for the announcement of a vast social plan . Well no, there will not be any. At least, "to date", as explained by the boss of Conforama, Alexandre Nodale: this Tuesday afternoon, during a meeting of four hours, unions worried at the highest point were reassured. There will be no closing of stores or dismissals, announced the direction of the second distributor of furniture in France.
 
A real relief, after the figures that had circulated the previous days, following the publication of an article of BFM Business : we then evoked the potential closure of forty stores (out of a total of 337 including 235 in France ). And out of 9200 employees working in France, 2500 positions could have been affected by this social plan, said the same sources who also predicted the purchase of Conforama by its direct competitor, Goal. "But it does not have the financial surface," says a trade unionist."

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#10249 DayTraderDad

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 02:03 PM

 

As a matter of fact... I don't even need to read the fairytale stories u ouks put up here for me to make a decision. Cheers

 

I think you must be very bored!!!
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#10250 Lionelza1

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 01:58 PM

As a matter of fact... I don't even need to read the fairytale stories u ouks put up here for me to make a decision. Cheers
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#10251 Lionelza1

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 01:41 PM

 

  


I also cannot understand the logic of people buy a share then it drops cries with pain and then as soon it is on the green it sells.

 

I imagine u make reference to me, seen u ouks talk about emotion blah blah blah....wrong brother...makes me wonder how many more things u got wrong. got frustrated with all the stuff i been reading on here, perhaps i could've handled that differently but im 1 feisty character...big difference

and yes, i made great returns on that sell! i will be doing it again...for now a bit too risky for me. why do u invest? to make money i presume

and yea perhaps im not an investor or whatever.....my gamble sure the hell paid off. no gaurantee it will happen next time around but i'll take my chances
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#10252 Captainfrom82

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 01:30 PM

Share price will go up with the following....

1. Restructuring
2. Viable business able to pay debt and trade
3. Pwc report confirming transgressions and laying accountability on persons, directors, and auditors.
4. Pwc report does not further reduce total assets.. Which have already been disclosed.. Example property valuations
5....legal successes or settlements... If Cristo himself drops his case or loses should see big movement.

Anything else???

Share price will be impacted by sentiment. And is currently trading at levels due to the massive sell offs. Expect share to always be volatile until unknowns above resolved...

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Hey there Investment Novice  and LarryK

 

Regarding the share price, I freely admit that I do not possess the skills to accurately predict what it will do.  I have some views, but really, this is not based on any left-brained analysis with hard evidence that I generally love to use to support my hypothesis. 

 

Disclaimer 1: A share price is an arbitrary number that two parties agree on.  It often does not bear any relationship to the underlying value of the merx!  I therefore do NOT hold the view that the market is efficient.

 

Disclaimer 2: I am not a trader, so share price movement holds little short term interest for me.  I love to see the underlying numbers of a business - both the topline revenue as well as the bottom line earnings (and everything in between).

 

I am fascinated by a trader's mentality to foretell a share price movement (although Milo has astounded me with his quite accurate prediction). 

 

I am old fashioned in that I believe that if I understand the quality of the underlying numbers, the future earnings discounted to today's values, and if I get this correct (you do not have to be 100% accurate, ballpark will do), that is more than enough.

 

I obviously get the whole obsession with the share price - after all it is the basis of our unit of measure.  But I would quite happily ignore this between Trading Updates and financial results.  Given the issues at Steinhoff, I have been following the share price movement more closely especially when details regarding the debt and restructuring are released via SENS.

 

 

Best Regards

Captainfrom82


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#10253 Captainfrom82

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 01:21 PM

Thanks Captain,

I believe there is good long term potential in this share, that’s why I’m going to hold onto my shares.
The issue is the share has been traded heavily and as per the info on the article you refer to, this affect share price and sentiment.
Interesting calculation on share price value by Sarel. Anything up to over €3
Anyway, we should all make decisions based on our own research, risk appetite AND patience. I can hold onto my shares for another 5 years or until I’m happy to sell. Once again, what is the target? That depends on the pwc report and 2017/8 financials. I remain open minded and will consider changing my strategy based on new information.

Kindly share your mate’s comment so we all on the same page?

 

Hi LarryK,

 

I noticed that the Sharechat site had problems over the past days, so I held off from posting in an unformatted version.

 

I have responded to you and "Investment Knowledge" above.

 

FWIW I believe that given the risks that Sarel is overly optimistic in his outlook.  Specifically the EBIDTA that he believes will materialise is significantly greater than my own calcs.

 

Best Regards

Captainfrom82


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#10254 Captainfrom82

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 01:16 PM

Seeing you are heavily invested in this share , i suggest that, seeing you not a lawyer and in your words that "you pretty sure " which tells me you not 100% sure , is get some legal advise from senior counsel on this matter as it would/could be considerably detriment to your investment decision especially if you not sure and then post incorrect facts here which others take to believe as correct. If i do post the correct fact on the position of a shareholder being a dual holder of shares and debt simultaneously in the same company and how it effects the company and other creditors ( especially those tied up in a 3 year agreement) on liquidation or sequestration, you or anyone else here wont believe me and would in all likelihood use some nasty criticism against me. So my suggestion is get professional help on this interpretation. It may cost you a little, but will help you and then others here considerably going forward.

 

In your own words ,  too many "incorrect opinions" posted here as correct facts which becomes horribly misleading to those already invested.

 

Hi Polly,

 

Thank you for the feedback. I certainly will approach legal advice.

 

I would still however like to hear your thoughts.  If you are uncomfortable sharing it on this platform for the reasons detailed above would you please consider forwarding me a summary at Captainfrom82@gmail.com

 

I would appreciate the advice.

 

Best Regards

Captainfrom82


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#10255 DayTraderDad

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 01:08 PM

 

  

yea i know ur shorting and well done on making money....i see the harvard boys question why sell in the green....wonder if they were taught on how to make money....maybe they sell in the red eh

bru u cannot talk investment and steinhoff in the same sentence......u talk gambling and steinhoff in the same sentence yeah....when r u gonna realise this?

 

I think you missing something about investing! No share goes up in a straight line so even though I believe SNH will be with R20 in three years time does not prevent me to sell on news. If you read today's news (lots of hot air) about FSCA then the discussion about Steinhoff in the Woordfees with the famous writer that has lots of guesses there is only one way the share is going to go and that is down. So if you don't have the tools and want to invest in SNH put your certificates in the drawer and go fishing and by late April open the draw.
I refer to gambling is buying shares (that I am very negative about) then hope for a quick pump. The reason I do day trading is exactly for that to catch the ups and downs because when I invest it usually takes time because I look for opportunities with a turnaround story.
I also cannot understand the logic of people buy a share then it drops cries with pain and then as soon it is on the green it sells. Would have been quicker less painful to go to the casino.
Anyway it looks like the gap is now closed!!!
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#10256 Lionelza1

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 12:49 PM

 

  

My target is 1.92 for the turnaround. While you thinking I made my money shorting on the day trading side. You talk about the slow poison so why not do something about it and short to take advantage and enjoy the ride.

There is a gap to be closed in the Frankfurt chart at 0.12 euro cts.

I am not dreaming I invest and I agree my dream is very far from gambling!!

 

and yea i do not have the tools, knowledge, nor the time to play short
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#10257 Lionelza1

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 12:43 PM

 

  

My target is 1.92 for the turnaround. While you thinking I made my money shorting on the day trading side. You talk about the slow poison so why not do something about it and short to take advantage and enjoy the ride.

There is a gap to be closed in the Frankfurt chart at 0.12 euro cts.

I am not dreaming I invest and I agree my dream is very far from gambling!!

 

yea i know ur shorting and well done on making money....i see the harvard boys question why sell in the green....wonder if they were taught on how to make money....maybe they sell in the red eh

bru u cannot talk investment and steinhoff in the same sentence......u talk gambling and steinhoff in the same sentence yeah....when r u gonna realise this?
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#10258 DayTraderDad

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 12:26 PM

 

1.95 and dropping like a stone.... Maybe I'll wait for my previous avg to buy in again.... Or maybe I be patient for a "cheaper" price..... Hey DTD whats a cheap price on this?

Your fantasy preach and my reality are worlds apart boet

 

My target is 1.92 for the turnaround. While you thinking I made my money shorting on the day trading side. You talk about the slow poison so why not do something about it and short to take advantage and enjoy the ride.

There is a gap to be closed in the Frankfurt chart at 0.12 euro cts.

I am not dreaming I invest and I agree my dream is very far from gambling!!
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#10259 Lionelza1

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 12:06 PM

1.95 and dropping like a stone.... Maybe I'll wait for my previous avg to buy in again.... Or maybe I be patient for a "cheaper" price..... Hey DTD whats a cheap price on this?

Your fantasy preach and my reality are worlds apart boet
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#10260 DayTraderDad

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 08:33 PM

 

  


As usual Bla bla with nothing in facts!!! Boring are you now tired of EOH?

 

Polly your posts would be useful if you put the facts down like where is the law which you referring because you making vague statements which means absolutely nothing just noise.
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