15225 replies to this topic

[Lionelza1]

Important dates... 28feb2019 Q1 update, 18april afs 2017,2018

A "little" informative sens.... Let the pump begin?????

[leo]

Thanks chief

Sent from my SM-G935F using Sharenet Sharechat mobile app

[Tom]

Thanks Bubble.

[Bubble]

Feedback from SNH wrt Christo Wiese shareholding. They say nothing changed since Feb 2018, and gave a link to a site that provided a different value to the one I used that showed the buy in Dec 2018.

 

Only unanswered question: Is he allowed to trade shares in this closed period?

 

(Mails below)

 

Dear Bubble thanks for your email.

 

I have no idea what source information the Company Shareholding website you quote is using.

 

As general background, Steinhoff do not have visibility on its shareholding, as the company do not have see-through of the Frankfurt Stock exchange trades (as a result of German privacy regulation).

 

According to the latest records of the AFM (Dutch regulator), Upington Investment Holdings owns 267 370 122 shares – which has been in the case since February 2018. (details available on https://www.afm.nl/en/professionals/registers/meldingenregisters/substantiele-deelnemingen/details?id=53565&KeyWords=steinhoff)

With regards to the 3% rule, notification of changes in shareholding is required (by the shareholder) if threshold levels are breached.  The thresholds are 3%, 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 75% and 95%.  Notification is not required if shareholding changes, but doesn’t breach new thresholds.

I hope that helps.

 

Kind regards

 

Steinhoff Investor Relations

_____________________________________

 

Tel                    : +27 (21) 808 0711

E-Mail               : investors@steinhoffinternational.com

Web                  : www.steinhoffinternational.com

_____________________________________

 

View our legal notice here

 

 

From: Me
Sent: 18 January 2019 10:48 AM
To: Steinhoff Investors
Subject: Titan Premier Investments(Pty) Ltd - Share increase

 

 

Hallo Steinhoff,

 

Hope you can clarify or confirm the below question/confusion.

 

I received a report that Titan Premier Investments increase shareholding from Nov 18 to Dec 18. This report is pulled from a website called Company Shareholders.

https://www.companyshareholders.com/

 

It shows that Titan increase with 106 426 164 shares in this period. Making their total holdings 243 984 427, which translates to around 6%. Now;

 

-          According to the media, Titan owned around 6.2% after the forced sale in Dec17/Jan18. Which means, nothing changed.

-          Is Titan allowed to trade shares due to locked period without AFS. Christo Wiese resigned as Chairman, but within the locked period, making him bound by the lock on trading shares.

-          If a shareholder with share greater than 3% changes holding, SNH is bound to report it. Which did not happen.

 

So, my assumption is;

 

Nothing changed, Titan did not increase or decrease holding, Company Shareholders have an error on their system. Am I correct?

 

Can you confirm the current shareholding of Titan Premier Investment(Pty)ltd.?

 

Thank you,

[Captainfrom82]

 a very good evening to you to Captain

 

Thanks for some pretty good info/analysis on Steinhoff. Im sure most here are invested here and will feel a bit relieved . 

 

Firstly as a senior member makes no difference here. We have senior members calling other members con men, crooks, pumpers , dumpers and you name it.  Carefull what they will start calling you. 

 

Secondly no, one is erring , not me, not you or anyone else in this thread...That we will only know sometime in future who is right and who is wrong. In meantime all we doing now is giving views , opinions and advise.

 

Ok a little about myself very few know here.

 

1. Im an ex Chartered Accountant ( now retired ) and full time trader/investor.

2. I qualified in 1986

3. i bought my first share while serving articles in 1982 and have been investing from then on. Trading i took up about 10 years doing share cfds and then about 4 years ago trading the alsi

4. My first foray into Steinhoff was about 2008 when they bought off Unitrans and Steinhof was trading then at about R18.00/R20.00 a share. I looked at the AFS and believe me as a CA i could just not understand what the heck was going on. Everything looked too complicated and i just said no this investment is not for me. Well the goose came home to rest now it appears.

 

 

Ok back to the discussion here ....

 

Let me tell you one thing..I have never ever looked at Steinhoffs balance sheet/afs since 2008.Not the most recent one and not even the 1H figures. Also not interested in your figures or Carls who i presume is from Seeking Alpha. Those figures mean absolutely nothing to me. My view and conclusion is based on overall big picture outside financials. When you invest for over 35 years there is a thing called experience  which overrides everything else. You take this  experience, throw in a few repeated off balance sheet disaster questions to yourself  and combine it with the cleva money/dumb money trick and you can see where the company is heading. 

 

what are these questions.

 

1. did the company commit fraud. Yes. 

2. has the company got debt? yes tons of it.

3. Any contingent liabilities. More every day

 

Here you have a company which to me seems it main activity was to exchange gold for fake diamonds  ( other businesses were secondary in nature) 

You have a Ceo who jumps ship moment the news break which basically tells you the extent of the fraud committed

You have a share price collapsed from over R80.00 to R20.00 overnight and then down to R1.60 and hovers around here for months...So cant blame margin calls for drop in price as price would have made some recovery by now.

Company has assets no doubt , good or bad , profitable or loss making is hard to tell. At moment we know retailers from Sooth Africa to USA to UK are all suffering with most retail listed shares down about 30 to 40% especially USA and UK. and we know what space Steinhoff is in. Will they be any different?

 

and now they key..liabilities..this is where the uncertainty/risk is. Has this been quantified by new management? what about the contingent liabilities?

 

deal or not with creditors , i cant see this company surviving as all they will be doing is servicing debt for next 10 years if they survive that long. Debt will kill then off much before that. 

 

Your post on restructuring debt ( 5 points)  is basically telling me future looks bleak. None of those 5 points will ever work. 

 

 

 

and some points i picked up from your posts

 

The interest is NOT going to be serviced at an operational level.  They are not going to pay the interest, and you are not going to see this reflected in the Financials (neither the Income Statement, nor on the Cash Flow).  Rather, they are largely going to accrue the interest to the principle debt.

 

If this was left unchecked, it would have the impact of overstating earnings over the next 3 years, and balloon the debt.

 

 

 Please explain as i do not understand how the interest payable or accrual if not pai dwill not go through the income statement

 

 

 

However, I believe that it is you who is exposed to Confirmation Bias with the chief culprits being the various Financial journalist (Ann Crotty and Stuart?). 

 

mm for the record.

1. Who is Ann Crotty and Stuart..never heard of them

2. Not a Value investor?  Im a short term trader and long term investor who keeps away from penny stocks..besides JBL and AEG where i see lots of value for a good risk reward even if they fail.

2. Confirmation Bias.....I have traded 3 times in Steinfoff all shorts with 2 winners and one loser.  Last trade over 8 months ago.  Since then i have never traded it nor will i trade it in the fututre. I made this fact in the Steinhoff thread a few times.

 

I have no interest what so ever in Steinhoff , not a pumper or dumper but all im doing is giving advise/opinion on this thread to help forum members...I could be right or i could be wrong going forward but that is the uncertainty on investing. I have alwasy said to members do your own homework before you invest...Yes Captain you have done yours and if you feel you confident you buying value sure go for it.  My test of buying into this share as an investment:

 

If you invest here it has to be for long run right. Question or test is with all the uncertaintiry and risk:

 

Can you sleep at night peacefully after investing here.  If answer is yes , means you have done your homework. All i can say is good luck

 

If you cant sleep at night after investing here, get out....

 

Dear Polly,

 

Thank you for your well reasoned response.  Thank you as well for the courtesy that you have afforded -  I was raised in a different era, and these small things matter to a person like me.

 

Regarding no one erring: I guess that we must agree to disagree - we cannot be both correct yet hold wildly divergent views.  But I get the intention behind what you are saying.

 

Regarding your background, it would seem that we are cut from the same cloth.  I am also a finance guy, and bought my first shares in the mid 80s. I also did not buy or hold any Steinhoff shares for exactly the same reasons as you outlined.   That changed in 2017 when after performing a very comprehensive analysis, I bought the Steinhoff shares.

 

Regarding the interest "not appearing on the income statement", my apologies for the typo (I do not even know where that came from).  I guess that my point was that the intention of the 3 year CVA was to restructure debt so that it does not result in actual cash outflows (Cashflow Statement).  Ignore the bit about the Income Statement where it has to be realised. 

 

Thank you again for your response.

 

Best Regards

Captainfrom82

[Lionelza1]

For the sake of my sanity I friggen hope 3 months... Last time I'll be using my hard earned money and GAMBLE on other poepols decisions....playing markets not for me

And I can't have patience while market is chowing my money haha *** that sht

[DayTraderDad]

DayTraderDad I have big money on this share and believe u me Im all about being positive and that's the secret to my success..... But what I see unfolding before me..... *** man it's challenging to remain positive

Yes only three months to go and all will be sorted. Right know just waiting for a solution on the LSW issue which quite sure management are hard at work to come with a solution.

[LarryK]

My question is what could still cause the share price to collapse even further and the company to be liquidated?
And on the other hand what results/report/news would allow the share price to get to targets of R5, R13, etc?

I value your thoughts

[Lionelza1]

DayTraderDad I have big money on this share and believe u me Im all about being positive and that's the secret to my success..... But what I see unfolding before me..... *** man it's challenging to remain positive

[DayTraderDad]

Thanks for the article DayTraderDad but I want numbers from the horses mouth.... And this horse ain't friggen talking to us

Lionel patients is the key to successful investing. To give you a example if you recall a few years back Lonmin was on its knees and needed a rights offer. The experts predicting LON would collapse and news media painted such negative picture but I made my financial model and found value so I bought lots of the shares took the rights issue at R23.40 and then got out at R40 it took if I recall correctly the best of 8 months but very profitable. Think to yourself what exactly are you expecting from the financials that is not already well estimated. By the time the Q1 update comes out the financial will already be too late in retail a balance sheet does not matter that much its all about sales and profit margin. Study that article it explains very well and gives good insight.

[Lionelza1]

Thanks for the article DayTraderDad but I want numbers from the horses mouth.... And this horse ain't friggen talking to us

[Lionelza1]

Is why I say this idiot useless management should suspend this share because they are friggen clueless..... Look at choppies... They got issue they suspended.... Price 64c until they lift suspension the we see how market reacts

This useless snh share is still trading and its f-ing off all over the place.... From 107 to 3.80 back 2.50 up 2.9 down 1.6....its friggen all over the place

Useless management..... For all I know they allowing it to run so the creditors can score.... Like I said b4 they have 1st hand info on what's to go down and we seen how the market reacts with information.... Sheesh if we had that info before it was released we'd be in the dollars

[DayTraderDad]

And it's mind boggling how ppl throw numbers showing debt, interest, assets etc etc etc.... The fact is steinhoff itself does not know correct numbers so wtf r u ouks getting numbers from?

Lionel read this article will give you a good insight:

https://seekingalpha...-comeback-trail

[DayTraderDad]

DayTraderDad really dude? I am assuming u are invested in this share..... So this useless management tells u on 29th April u will be given Financials of the company right? So u invest more or u hold but u have a huge expectation because it's YOUR money.... Come 29th April they say sorry we underestimated we will now release 40th August.... Then Mr Market moers this share and it drops 40%....

DUDE your investment is then fckd! And u want to talk to me about complexity? *** that sh¡t.... If these useless ouks can't deliver then get some1 in who can.... Klaar!

Haha yes I am well invested own a fairly big holding. As a investor I prefer that they delay the results and report to ensure everything is covered and a clean sheet started. I believe in this management and what has been achieved is remarkable in difficult circumstances.  I created my financial model from all information available and very happy there is a bright future after the financial restructuring is complete. 

[Lionelza1]

And it's mind boggling how ppl throw numbers showing debt, interest, assets etc etc etc.... The fact is steinhoff itself does not know correct numbers so wtf r u ouks getting numbers from?

[Lionelza1]

DayTraderDad really dude? I am assuming u are invested in this share..... So this useless management tells u on 29th April u will be given Financials of the company right? So u invest more or u hold but u have a huge expectation because it's YOUR money.... Come 29th April they say sorry we underestimated we will now release 40th August.... Then Mr Market moers this share and it drops 40%....

DUDE your investment is then fckd! And u want to talk to me about complexity? *** that sh¡t.... If these useless ouks can't deliver then get some1 in who can.... Klaar!

[DayTraderDad]

eish.....lets wait and see ok....i gave my views....senseless arguing about same points...end of day the share price reflects the disaster...

 

As an investor i said do your homework and in my honest opinion you havent done yours...case closed!!!

Haha yes lets see share price at present only reflecting sentiment with lots of speculation but lets talk again 29th April and see if I did my homework or not.

[Polly]

Surely you as an accountant should believe in integrity of people or do you believe every accountant is crook? The only reason SNH got to this mess was because accountants allowed it to get there by keeping eyes closed. Go and look everywhere there was financial failures always comes down to poor accounting. Now that the new management is trying to fix the issues they are also painted with the same crooked brush. It is not reasonable to expect the new ESCOM management to quickly fix years of problems. We cannot compare ESCOM with SNH because two different issues ESCOM has no money because municipalities not paying for electricity and when they want to increase the tariffs to cover losses then people complain. SNH still has the same turnover and expected EBITDA the same as when the share was trading at R50 so whats change?

eish.....lets wait and see ok....i gave my views....senseless arguing about same points...end of day the share price reflects the disaster...

 

As an investor i said do your homework and in my honest opinion you havent done yours...case closed!!!

[DayTraderDad]

stop believing....

 

Eskom has new management....ands whats up there?

 

do you think going down to all retails shops etc management not now tempted to steal as well??  This company has no control whatsoever...Each man for himself now...be it 1 pound or R1m pound

 

This is how business work my dad...seen it over and over again

Surely you as an accountant should believe in integrity of people or do you believe every accountant is crook? The only reason SNH got to this mess was because accountants allowed it to get there by keeping eyes closed. Go and look everywhere there was financial failures always comes down to poor accounting. Now that the new management is trying to fix the issues they are also painted with the same crooked brush. It is not reasonable to expect the new ESCOM management to quickly fix years of problems. We cannot compare ESCOM with SNH because two different issues ESCOM has no money because municipalities not paying for electricity and when they want to increase the tariffs to cover losses then people complain. SNH still has the same turnover and expected EBITDA the same as when the share was trading at R50 so whats change?

[DayTraderDad]

Saving steinhoff is their job so we can't applaud them for that, so what great have they done so far? Nudda! They can't even keep to their own timetable and that's just pathetic... Is why I say they useless

I can't even say they saved this company from liquidation as this is not a fact!

Lionel why don't you just take sometime to put yourself in the new management shoes and try to understand the complexities at hand? The amount of legal claims at hand makes it very important that the PwC report is very accurate covering every possible event because it has huge implications. Why don't you read that piece written in the Seekingalpha which puts everything in a good perspective.