15225 replies to this topic

[leo]

Lots of resistance...

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[leo]

You are correct the debt burden is too hi and quite sure they agreed on the 10% interest is also so not doable so that means there has to be a sale of assets. The reason they want the three year lockup it to have time to do the sales and not simply do a fire sale of everything. The chairwomen said in parliament there is going to be asset sales. The cash flow is improving because Kika Linea is gone and MF turned around so the cash is still there immaterial on the size of the debt. The restructure is all about reducing debt so the only way they have that makes sense and keep going is to sell equity on each cluster and maintain control very much what is happening in MF. By selling 100% or above the 50% then they loose the cash flow thus no future income. So at present debt is 9.3 bil and if they will keep a debt of Eur3 bil after restructure means they need to find 6.3 bil.
This is were the money is:
1- POCO Debt takeover - -140
2 - POCO – Moneys to receive from sale 50% - 271
3 - Sale of Kika Leiner property -590

4 - Sale of Matress Firm 49,9% -525
5 - Recovery from Wieser advance to buy SHP -350
6 - Sale of Hemisphere – Should be the next step -400
7 - Sale of Conforama properties – In the news -850
Total A -3125

Therefore debt: 9.3
Less debt to carry -3.0 ( This debt can easily be maintained in the balance sheet and paid down in time)
Less Total A -3.1
Debt outstanding: 3.2

Cash generated from the sale of PPH from 71% to 50.1%, PSG and KAP: Euro 1.3 bil
Therefore the rest of Pepco, Poundland Greenlit and Conforama sale of 49.9% need to be with 1.9 bil and the problem is solved.

Short SNH at your own peril. I am going to have a six pack of SAB green beer but if you all think about this you will find this is the only way out.

Well then. That's a wrap

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[DayTraderDad]

Snh has three year extension on all the debt, which they cannot afford to pay even in three years if they don't restructure. I honestly believe in spite of what may come from the PWC report or the courts the debt is just to large! I think it is unlikely and will even be unwise for them to pay dividends within the next three years as they will have Cash Flow problems at least for this period. Best case scenario is only after three years. I was long on SNH, but just believe there's to much risk for not nearly enough reward even in best case scenario. I'll be happy for all investors if you double up and SP is R5 by next year June, you deserve it for having the tenacity to hang in there. But even given that scenario I feel there's lower risk shares that could do that, but possibly better. Each to their own. Best of luck!!

You are correct the debt burden is too hi and quite sure they agreed on the 10% interest is also so not doable so that means there has to be a sale of assets. The reason they want the three year lockup it to have time to do the sales and not simply do a fire sale of everything. The chairwomen said in parliament there is going to be asset sales. The cash flow is improving because Kika Linea is gone and MF turned around so the cash is still there immaterial on the size of the debt. The restructure is all about reducing debt so the only way they have that makes sense and keep going is to sell equity on each cluster and maintain control very much what is happening in MF. By selling 100% or above the 50% then they loose the cash flow thus no future income. So at present debt is 9.3 bil and if they will keep a debt of Eur3 bil after restructure means they need to find 6.3 bil.

This is were the money is:

1- POCO Debt takeover -                                         -140

2 - POCO – Moneys to receive from sale 50% - 271

3 - Sale of Kika Leiner property                                -590

4 - Sale of Matress Firm 49,9% -525

5 - Recovery from Wieser advance to buy SHP       -350

6 - Sale of Hemisphere – Should be the next step -400

7 - Sale of Conforama properties – In the news -850

                                                Total     A                   -3125

 

Therefore debt:       9.3

Less debt to carry   -3.0 ( This debt can easily be maintained in the balance sheet and paid down in time) 

Less Total A            -3.1

Debt outstanding:    3.2

 

Cash generated from the sale of PPH from 71% to 50.1%, PSG and KAP:  Euro 1.3 bil

Therefore the rest of Pepco, Poundland Greenlit and Conforama sale of 49.9% need to be with 1.9 bil and the problem is solved.

 

Short SNH at your own peril. I am going to have a six pack of SAB green beer but if you all think about this you will find this is the only way out.

 

Edited by DayTraderDad, 07 November 2018 - 06:08 PM.

[Tom]

It's not the lawyers that decide what is what on a case, it's the law interpreted by qualified judges.

And against every lawyer there will be a defence lawyer.

The lawyers can assume or say what they like for whatever reason they have, but that's not what the judges will decide.

Edited by Tom, 07 November 2018 - 06:02 PM.

[leo]

Correction.

Mattress firm lock up to be finalised 16 Nov.

LUA of the restructure is 20 Nov.

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[leo]

Yea Leo my intention was never to go long with this share, we do not know the extent of trouble they're in but what we do know is the that fraud happened in excess of 10yrs?.... MA se Donner that's a long ass time

My last play will hopefully be 21st nov and I sure the *** hope 21nov will see at least 20% up.

And if it doesn't happen like that then eish..... I need my wife to start loving me again haha... This useless share

Haha.

Yes get your timing right. They said 16th of Nov for lock up update. Correct me if I'm wrong

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[Lionelza1]

Yea Leo my intention was never to go long with this share, we do not know the extent of trouble they're in but what we do know is the that fraud happened in excess of 10yrs?.... MA se Donner that's a long ass time

My last play will hopefully be 21st nov and I sure the *** hope 21nov will see at least 20% up.

And if it doesn't happen like that then eish..... I need my wife to start loving me again haha... This useless share

[leo]

https://m.fin24.com/...nhoff-20181107?

Pay back da money

Saw that. Longing this share is too risky. Just know your key dates.

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[Lionelza1]

https://m.fin24.com/...nhoff-20181107?

Pay back da money

[leo]

Snh has three year extension on all the debt, which they cannot afford to pay even in three years if they don't restructure. I honestly believe in spite of what may come from the PWC report or the courts the debt is just to large! I think it is unlikely and will even be unwise for them to pay dividends within the next three years as they will have Cash Flow problems at least for this period. Best case scenario is only after three years. I was long on SNH, but just believe there's to much risk for not nearly enough reward even in best case scenario. I'll be happy for all investors if you double up and SP is R5 by next year June, you deserve it for having the tenacity to hang in there. But even given that scenario I feel there's lower risk shares that could do that, but possibly better. Each to their own. Best of luck!!

Please share which shares.....

My view, this share is a dud. So going to short it just before fy17 results are released

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[Matrix]

Every trading platform has a disclaimer that investing may lead to total loss so who bought into Steinhoff either from Pepkor, etc should have been aware that possibility exists. I don't see the complexity you referring because much of the bad news is already old news and why would PwC take more time? All that now needs doing is the restructure and exchange  debt into equity (the same as MF) for PGS and Greenlit Brands with debt holders owning 49.9% of the equity. Sell of all property portfolio and sell down the holding in PPH to 50.1% then the resulting debt will be not more than Eur3 bil. From next year SNH will resume paying of dividends. I know already what you saying that I am mad but take a minute to think but first switch off the negativity and try to see the green shoots. Anyway lets watch this space and have a chat in February 2019.

 

Snh has three year extension on all the debt, which they cannot afford to pay even in three years if they don't restructure. I honestly believe in spite of what may come from the PWC report or the courts the debt is just to large! I think it is unlikely and will even be unwise for them to pay dividends within the next three years as they will have Cash Flow problems at least for this period. Best case scenario is only after three years. I was long on SNH, but just believe there's to much risk for not nearly enough reward even in best case scenario. I'll be happy for all investors if you double up and SP is R5 by next year June, you deserve it for having the tenacity to hang in there. But even given that scenario I feel there's lower risk shares that could do that, but possibly better. Each to their own. Best of luck!!

[DayTraderDad]

As much as i did not want to post here, feel i have an obligation to myself to do so..

 

Please refer to my gold and fake gold post..

 

read and understand what i am trying to get across...

 

Wiese sold his Pepkor stake in exchange for Steinhoff shares...

 

so lets say diamonds for gold exchanged for +- same value

 

he gave his diamonds and he got gold..

 

now gold turns out fake...

 

What does he do? His only choice is to sue the company for fraud irrespective of the salesman who now disappeared.

 

No SA case law has ever passed a successful judgement before in a case like this..because it never happened.. I think most here feel its punters, man in street or fund managers suing...Yes they are but they will stand no chance because judgement will say company collapsed in normal course of business. 

 

However Wiese, Tekkie town and others who exchanged their diamonds for this fake gold have every right to sue Steinhoff and inn my opinion stand a very good chance... I would also if i exchanged my diamond...the other punters, fund manager etc are just climbing on the bandwagon hoping they get something back. 

 

The part about margin call being met wouldnt have caused a collapse is a ridiculous statement to make. I think its just sour grapes by new shareholder who caught a falling knife and now getting burnt looking for excuses.

 

Those waiting for AFS in December continue waiting ala Chappies. watch for a sens nearer that time asking for extension.

 

This is too big a mess to go anywhere nearby....

 

Just my opinion guys....not pumping or dumping but reality

Every trading platform has a disclaimer that investing may lead to total loss so who bought into Steinhoff either from Pepkor, etc should have been aware that possibility exists. I don't see the complexity you referring because much of the bad news is already old news and why would PwC take more time? All that now needs doing is the restructure and exchange  debt into equity (the same as MF) for PGS and Greenlit Brands with debt holders owning 49.9% of the equity. Sell of all property portfolio and sell down the holding in PPH to 50.1% then the resulting debt will be not more than Eur3 bil. From next year SNH will resume paying of dividends. I know already what you saying that I am mad but take a minute to think but first switch off the negativity and try to see the green shoots. Anyway lets watch this space and have a chat in February 2019.

[DayTraderDad]

Have Wiese answered the margin call on the collateral loan he took against his Steinhoff shares, then the share price wouldn't have collapsed.

The share would still collapsed because these hot shot investment houses dumped the share now want the court to compensate them. Hahaha

[Polly]

Yet, Wiese (who owns Titan) which owns the 137,558,263 shares is opening a case against Steinhoff, despite that it was him that was the biggest share holder, and board member and then Chairman for years during the period for which he claims that Steinhoff defrauded him, how can Steinhoff NV as a company defraud him if it was mainly under his control, and he was able to hire or fire what he likes. If he thinks that Jooste (or whoever else) defrauded him, then he can just open a case against Jooste (and his insurance) and whoever else, but to open a case that caused the share price to drop even further, and then complain that the share price is low is no good plan.

And this case will not help him (in the eyes of the judge) to avoid the blame in the cases opened against him, so this plan will also not work in court.

 

Can any one talk to him and tell him that this case is only dropping the price of his about 138 million shares, and giving him a bad reputation, and will do him no good in avoiding responsibility or liability, and that the best for him is to settle with the share holders in a quick manner that makes every one happy, and avoid lengthy and missy court proceeding, and hope in this ???

 

 

Have Wiese answered the margin call on the collateral loan he took against his Steinhoff shares, then the share price wouldn't have collapsed.

 

As much as i did not want to post here, feel i have an obligation to myself to do so..

 

Please refer to my gold and fake gold post..

 

read and understand what i am trying to get across...

 

Wiese sold his Pepkor stake in exchange for Steinhoff shares...

 

so lets say diamonds for gold exchanged for +- same value

 

he gave his diamonds and he got gold..

 

now gold turns out fake...

 

What does he do? His only choice is to sue the company for fraud irrespective of the salesman who now disappeared.

 

No SA case law has ever passed a successful judgement before in a case like this..because it never happened.. I think most here feel its punters, man in street or fund managers suing...Yes they are but they will stand no chance because judgement will say company collapsed in normal course of business. 

 

However Wiese, Tekkie town and others who exchanged their diamonds for this fake gold have every right to sue Steinhoff and inn my opinion stand a very good chance... I would also if i exchanged my diamond...the other punters, fund manager etc are just climbing on the bandwagon hoping they get something back. 

 

The part about margin call being met wouldnt have caused a collapse is a ridiculous statement to make. I think its just sour grapes by new shareholder who caught a falling knife and now getting burnt looking for excuses.

 

Those waiting for AFS in December continue waiting ala Chappies. watch for a sens nearer that time asking for extension.

 

This is too big a mess to go anywhere nearby....

 

Just my opinion guys....not pumping or dumping but reality

[Tom]

Yet, Wiese (who owns Titan) which owns the 137,558,263 shares is opening a case against Steinhoff, despite that it was him that was the biggest share holder, and board member and then Chairman for years during the period for which he claims that Steinhoff defrauded him, how can Steinhoff NV as a company defraud him if it was mainly under his control, and he was able to hire or fire what he likes. If he thinks that Jooste (or whoever else) defrauded him, then he can just open a case against Jooste (and his insurance) and whoever else, but to open a case that caused the share price to drop even further, and then complain that the share price is low is no good plan.

And this case will not help him (in the eyes of the judge) to avoid the blame in the cases opened against him, so this plan will also not work in court.

 

Can any one talk to him and tell him that this case is only dropping the price of his about 138 million shares, and giving him a bad reputation, and will do him no good in avoiding responsibility or liability, and that the best for him is to settle with the share holders in a quick manner that makes every one happy, and avoid lengthy and missy court proceeding, and hope in this ???

Have Wiese answered the margin call on the collateral loan he took against his Steinhoff shares, then the share price wouldn't have collapsed.

Edited by Tom, 07 November 2018 - 02:07 PM.

[Tom]

STEINHOFF INTERNATIONAL HLDG N.V.                          Shares Held 2018/09/28    Change in Shares Held   Shares Held Shares Held 2018/08/31

TITAN PREMIER INVESTMENTS (PTY) LTD               137,558,263                         137,558,263                                           0

Yet, Wiese (who owns Titan) which owns the 137,558,263 shares is opening a case against Steinhoff, despite that it was him that was the biggest share holder, and board member and then Chairman for years during the period for which he claims that Steinhoff defrauded him, how can Steinhoff NV as a company defraud him if it was mainly under his control, and he was able to hire or fire what he likes. If he thinks that Jooste (or whoever else) defrauded him, then he can just open a case against Jooste (and his insurance) and whoever else, but to open a case that caused the share price to drop even further, and then complain that the share price is low is no good plan.

And this case will not help him (in the eyes of the judge) to avoid the blame in the cases opened against him, so this plan will also not work in court.

 

Can any one talk to him and tell him that this case is only dropping the price of his about 138 million shares, and giving him a bad reputation, and will do him no good in avoiding responsibility or liability, and that the best for him is to settle with the share holders in a quick manner that makes every one happy, and avoid lengthy and missy court proceeding, and hope in this ???

Edited by Tom, 07 November 2018 - 02:03 PM.

[DayTraderDad]

Ho dear ho dear: https://www.business...inhoff-debacle/

[DayTraderDad]

STEINHOFF INTERNATIONAL HLDG N.V. Shares Held 2018/09/28 Change in Shares Held Shares Held 2018/08/31                 CLEARSTREAM BANKING S.A LUXEMBOURG 2,313,329,728 120,596,605 2,192,733,123 GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES PENSION FUND PUBLIC INVESTMENT CORPORATION 273,897,828 0 273,897,828 TITAN PREMIER INVESTMENTS (PTY) LTD 137,558,263 137,558,263 0

STEINHOFF INTERNATIONAL HLDG N.V.                          Shares Held 2018/09/28    Change in Shares Held   Shares Held Shares Held 2018/08/31

TITAN PREMIER INVESTMENTS (PTY) LTD               137,558,263                         137,558,263                                           0

[DayTraderDad]

Dad what’s the story with TITAN?

STEINHOFF INTERNATIONAL HLDG N.V. Shares Held 2018/09/28 Change in Shares Held Shares Held 2018/08/31                 CLEARSTREAM BANKING S.A LUXEMBOURG 2,313,329,728 120,596,605 2,192,733,123 GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES PENSION FUND PUBLIC INVESTMENT CORPORATION 273,897,828 0 273,897,828 TITAN PREMIER INVESTMENTS (PTY) LTD 137,558,263 137,558,263 0

[LarryK]

Dad what’s the story with TITAN?