15225 replies to this topic

[Polla]

There are listed law firms jumping from case to case on claims. That´s how they make a living. ( Just like those doctors specializing on boob jobs). The law is skew designed by lawyers to rip off the public. There is no guaranty of anything when you buy a share. Again that´s how lawyers work put disclaimers on trading websites then sue companies for losses. I wonder if there will ever be a time law firms will be sued for costs when they loose the cases. I hope LDP takes on Hamilton and the investment house manipulators and when he wins the case sue them to get the money back. What those greedy shareholders don't understand for them to sell their shares there was a need to have other brave people buying like me. So know they want me to subsidize them.

 

The fools are the shareholders that support these law firms. Anyway these are my thoughts.

I agree with you DTD, this one will have to be fought in court and not settled before hand, after a judgement sitting around a table can try and solve issues before going to a vote. But I'm sure LdP, and especially Peter Wakie and David Pauker has had this covered months ago...

[DayTraderDad]

Its just my 2cents......
But look at how many companies are out there,where there have been issues, both neglegent and fraudulent, and we have not had court cases like this. And there is a reason for this.
My opinion only, so I may also be wrong

There are listed law firms jumping from case to case on claims. That´s how they make a living. ( Just like those doctors specializing on boob jobs). The law is skew designed by lawyers to rip off the public. There is no guaranty of anything when you buy a share. Again that´s how lawyers work put disclaimers on trading websites then sue companies for losses. I wonder if there will ever be a time law firms will be sued for costs when they loose the cases. I hope LDP takes on Hamilton and the investment house manipulators and when he wins the case sue them to get the money back. What those greedy shareholders don't understand for them to sell their shares there was a need to have other brave people buying like me. So know they want me to subsidize them.

 

The fools are the shareholders that support these law firms. Anyway these are my thoughts.

[AMG76]

Its just my 2cents......
But look at how many companies are out there,where there have been issues, both neglegent and fraudulent, and we have not had court cases like this. And there is a reason for this.
My opinion only, so I may also be wrong

[DayTraderDad]

my worry is that Hamilton states the following

 

Fraud, not negligence

However in its letter Hamilton dismisses the De Bruyn precedent, stating: “This novel claim was run by a small personal injury law firm based in Johannesburg and it was based on a pleading of negligence.”

....So they want to try the case with a "fraud" hat on and not negligence as was the De Bruyn case.....and they represent Clients with deep pockets.. Allan Gray, Sanlam etc....

Yes and Hamilton forgot to read the disclaimer on every trading web sight that you can loose all your money on share trading. Now looking for guarantee money back escape. Good luck to them. I am convince as time comes the shareholders will chicken out. Hamilton is only thinking of its pocket because they get a percentage of the claim so before anyone gets money they will fill their pockets. Thats why they want lots more.

[Africa1962]

Yip great article putting things into perspective. It is for this reason that the market claimants (that are busy making noise) are very lucky to have been included in the settlement. They would have had very little success in bringing a claim against Steinhoff itself for their market losses. 

 

The only people that will gain out of the Hamilton action is the legal team and I dont believe the Steinhoff team are too concerned, they have this in the bag!

 

my worry is that Hamilton states the following

 

Fraud, not negligence

However in its letter Hamilton dismisses the De Bruyn precedent, stating: “This novel claim was run by a small personal injury law firm based in Johannesburg and it was based on a pleading of negligence.”

....So they want to try the case with a "fraud" hat on and not negligence as was the De Bruyn case.....and they represent Clients with deep pockets.. Allan Gray, Sanlam etc....

[Everlearning]

Yip great article putting things into perspective. It is for this reason that the market claimants (that are busy making noise) are very lucky to have been included in the settlement. They would have had very little success in bringing a claim against Steinhoff itself for their market losses. 

 

The only people that will gain out of the Hamilton action is the legal team and I dont believe the Steinhoff team are too concerned, they have this in the bag!

[AMG76]

Steinhoff case helps courts to get clarity on class actions against directors

https://www.business...ions-are-valid/

[AMG76]

Great article in business day. Will try and postage link

[Tolly12]

Hi Tolly,

 

I don't see this happening, there is no way the Company will give away the crown jewels that have the capability of servicing the debt. Also, let us not forget that the creditors under the new arrangements of agreeing to the GS, have aggred to move the expiry dates of the facilities from Dec 2021 - 2023 with the Comany also having an additional 6 months after that.

 

Once the GS is in process, the company will be busy witth thier phase 3, and that is addressing during these legacy loans. Given that we should shortly have unqualified audits, these loans will be able to be refinanced at marketed related rates which in itself is massive.

 

Then, the Company intends listing  Pepco and the Australian businesses, and the reason for this is to unlock value and capital which they will use to reduce the debt. The remaining balance of the debt they will be able to service out of profits. I anticiapate the company will be totally debt free in 3 - 5 years and will then be one of the worlds leading retailers.

 

No ways they will give away shares now, they have even made it a condition that they have the option to pay cash instead of Pep shares in the GS arrangement they busy with at the moment, if they have cash, they would rather use it than hand over shares which they know are more valuable.

 

Trust this makes sense!

 

Thanks Everlearning for you feedback.

The point is that I see very difficult that at the end of the Litigation process the Company will be able to refinance his debt at a 2-3% interest rate.

Now we have about 9.5 bil € as net debt (tomorrow we will know a more precise data). With Pepco and Australian's business IPO the net debt can be reduce at 6,5 bil €.

But we have to remind that IPO's means also a reduction in terms of EBITDA attributable to Steinhoff.

So a net debt of 6,5 bil € for a company with total revenue of 13 bil € will remain something dangerous that will not allow Steinhoff obtaining a 2-3% loan interest rate in the market.

 

I'm invested in Steinhoff, with a long view.

But I continue to think that at the end, the only solution will be to divide the cake with current creditors, where they will obtain the biggest part (I've estimated the 95%).

And with no debt, also that remaining 5% of the cake could increase in long terms.

[Everlearning]

Hi Tolly,

 

I don't see this happening, there is no way the Company will give away the crown jewels that have the capability of servicing the debt. Also, let us not forget that the creditors under the new arrangements of agreeing to the GS, have aggred to move the expiry dates of the facilities from Dec 2021 - 2023 with the Comany also having an additional 6 months after that.

 

Once the GS is in process, the company will be busy witth thier phase 3, and that is addressing during these legacy loans. Given that we should shortly have unqualified audits, these loans will be able to be refinanced at marketed related rates which in itself is massive.

 

Then, the Company intends listing  Pepco and the Australian businesses, and the reason for this is to unlock value and capital which they will use to reduce the debt. The remaining balance of the debt they will be able to service out of profits. I anticiapate the company will be totally debt free in 3 - 5 years and will then be one of the worlds leading retailers.

 

No ways they will give away shares now, they have even made it a condition that they have the option to pay cash instead of Pep shares in the GS arrangement they busy with at the moment, if they have cash, they would rather use it than hand over shares which they know are more valuable.

 

Trust this makes sense!

 

[Investment novice]

Thanks everlearning. Your explanation sounds very reasonable

[Tolly12]

Hi,

 

is possibile that at the end of the litigation process (with a positive outcome), in order to drastically reduce the debt level, the Company will decide with the creditors for a swap debt/equity?

I mean, current 4.3 billlion shares will be deleted and new shares will be distributed (for a total value of about 10 billions of Euro).

95% of these shares (9.5 billions Euro) will be assigned to creditors in exchange of their debt.

5% of these shares will be assigned to ‘current’ shareholders (500 millions Euro), so at current markep cap levels.

The consequences of this eventual scenarion will be that there won’t be any big rise or drop for current shareholders.

 

Tell me your opinion.

 

Best

T

 

[Tentative]

Same here. Each milestone on their way to the Global Settlement is met with new obstacles that nobody had even mentioned prior to that. Also, I kinda underestimated how much the SA media despises Steinhoff & all it stands for (am from Europe myself) - public opinion matters in these very high-profile litigation cases.

 

I'll continue holding for a while, as 1) I'm comfortably in green for now, 2) we know they have very healthy assets & 3) as Everlearning says, some of this noise is to be expected as claimants fight over a smaller cake. Not sure anymore what's noise & what is a real threat to the GS though...

 

I feel the same - Feels like people are writing stuff with those magic ink pens... I could have sworn that is what I read by now it looks different??? I am slowly giving up completely on this share.

Edited by wvdoes, 25 February 2021 - 12:47 PM.

[JR7800]

where I lost the plot on all this...I thought that the proposal was accepted by all except a few back in 2020..then because it was not 100% accepted they went to court in Uk to get permission or something to bypass the need for 100% approval and only get 75% approval.... .is this now the 25% saying they don't accept the outcome of courts and will now have more court cases?..

 

I feel the same - Feels like people are writing stuff with those magic ink pens... I could have sworn that is what I read by now it looks different??? I am slowly giving up completely on this share.

[Africa1962]

 

Steinhoff war intensifies @ https://docdro.id/CFHBRpY

 

 

where I lost the plot on all this...I thought that the proposal was accepted by all except a few back in 2020..then because it was not 100% accepted they went to court in Uk to get permission or something to bypass the need for 100% approval and only get 75% approval.... .is this now the 25% saying they don't accept the outcome of courts and will now have more court cases?..

[Tiekkie]

I think we are in the wrong sector. Retail is not doing to well. Everyone is pumping the Resource sector in this cycle

[Leadingedge]

that did not last long...

 

a little pump and dump for breakfast.

[Tiekkie]

Anyone know what is driving the share this side? Almost 10% up all of a sudden.

that did not last long...

[Leadingedge]

Anyone know what is driving the share this side? Almost 10% up all of a sudden.

[Squideye]

Steinhoff war intensifies @ https://docdro.id/CFHBRpY