15225 replies to this topic

[Polly]

CW has 3 months till AFS come out. 250 Million shares per month and he is back at his 25%. Let's assume he then drops the claim and market cap of Steinhoff will shoot up by 59 billion Rand. Meaning per share around 13 rand. Now with his 25% he got 13 billion rand back. Normally court settles at 20 to 25% of the claim so assuming this he would have gotten 13 billion. Either way CW would win, whether the claim goes through or not. 

I see where you going but much more complex....Others were also defrauded to exchange their gold for fake diamonds....Techie town comes to mind and there are others.... so future of claims very uncertain

[DayTraderDad]

 

Shareholders

Name Equities %

Public Investment Corp. Ltd. 426,970,560    9.91%

Christoffel Wiese 267,370,122    6.20%

OppenheimerFunds, Inc. 134,070,886    3.11%

Investec Asset Management (Pty) Ltd. 123,813,933    2.87%

Coronation Asset Management (Pty) Ltd. 112,865,281    2.62%

Steinhoff International Holdings NV 87,334,425    2.03%

The Vanguard Group, Inc. 78,933,106    1.83%

Foord Asset Management Pty Ltd. 52,785,292    1.22%

Lancaster 101 Pty Ltd. 51,526,717    1.20%

Business Venture Investments No 1499 Pty Ltd. 43,229,864    1.00%

 

Good you got the register as per AFM in Holland now bring the register of the JSE!

[DayTraderDad]

I'd rather believe the share registers than fin24 journalist...

Exactly my point why should I not trust a professional company that I know for years telling me every month who own shares every month ( they confirmed their figures are correct) and then believe some journalist that putting information that he/she got from leaked sources!!!

[Tom]

Tom, CW still has 6% in Europe (Under the company Upington Investment Holdings). These 6% where left after his margin call of the loans. He now bought another 5 to 6% on the JSE. Giving him around 11-12%. I'm pretty sure he will get his 25% back before April. CW definitely sees value in this company, he wouldn't just invest around 1 billion rand in a company that he values at 0. That 1 Billion rand is around 8% of his whole wealth. He won't just gamble that kind of money.

 

Shareholders

Name Equities %

Public Investment Corp. Ltd. 426,970,560    9.91%

Christoffel Wiese 267,370,122    6.20%

OppenheimerFunds, Inc. 134,070,886    3.11%

Investec Asset Management (Pty) Ltd. 123,813,933    2.87%

Coronation Asset Management (Pty) Ltd. 112,865,281    2.62%

Steinhoff International Holdings NV 87,334,425    2.03%

The Vanguard Group, Inc. 78,933,106    1.83%

Foord Asset Management Pty Ltd. 52,785,292    1.22%

Lancaster 101 Pty Ltd. 51,526,717    1.20%

Business Venture Investments No 1499 Pty Ltd. 43,229,864    1.00%

Edited by Tom, 04 February 2019 - 03:41 PM.

[andi222]

been saying this for yonks.....Even said before if i was in his shoes  i would do same....simple and streetwise assumption

 

Can see all thse contingemt liabilities warming up now...so much uncertaintity

 

They fraudulently took his crown jewel and gave him fake diamonds...

 

bet if pwc and afs better than expected , that claim will rise to a higher amount....

 

CW has 3 months till AFS come out. 250 Million shares per month and he is back at his 25%. Let's assume he then drops the claim and market cap of Steinhoff will shoot up by 59 billion Rand. Meaning per share around 13 rand. Now with his 25% he got 13 billion rand back. Normally court settles at 20 to 25% of the claim so assuming this he would have gotten 13 billion. Either way CW would win, whether the claim goes through or not. 

[DayTraderDad]

 here let me tell youll the difference...

 

 

Clever : thinks he smarter than the market using financials models, spread sheets , complex calculations , forward projected non nonsensical earnings and cash flow, checking social media and websites for confirmation bias etc etc

 

Streetwise investor : Looks at overall big picture , whats happening on the ground , forward and backward looking and makes up his own mind from previous expediences,and sticks to his guns without getting influenced by social  media and opinion of others..

 

 

Now which type of investor are you?

Polly I am neither. I read take all opinions on board use all available information to formulate my own vision and expectation use my experience without having a biased mind put all the negatives and positives down and create a investment model to back test various possibilities then make a decision based on my findings. 

To give you a example the big difference between you and me is you say the share is with ZERO but then come with fake news like the company will rise to R5 then the next three years go down to zero. Believe you me I do listen to your comment but then I try to formulate a situation that after a share rising by R5 because of good financial are out it would start a down trend to Zero so for that to happen PEPKOR, GREENLIT BRANDS, PEPCO EUROPE etc need to all of a sudden to start making losses. Now that's my problem I cannot find reason why that should happen so that's why I challenge you yet again show me how you getting there. Further everybody talking about claims so exactly how much will it be? No one puts that figure down. 

[Polla]

 

From: https://www.fin24.co...-claim-20180426

 

"

.

.

Companies in Christo Wiese’s Titan Group announced on Thursday they are suing embattled retailer Steinhoff for R59bn.

The claims relate to investments made by Wiese’s companies in Steinhoff in 2015 and 2016, according to a statement issued by the Titan Group.

Companies that make up the group are claiming cancellation of an agreement entered into with Steinhoff in 2015. “Titan Group subscribed for shares in Steinhoff following the acquisition of Pepkor Limited from the shareholders of Pepkor. They now claim repayment of the subscription amount,” the statement read.

“The second claim relates to the Titan Group’s capital injection into Steinhoff in 2016 to enable it to meet its debt obligations at the time of its acquisition of Mattress Firm in the US.”

.

.

"

 

I'd rather believe the share registers than fin24 journalist...

[Polly]

 

From: https://www.fin24.co...-claim-20180426

 

"

.

.

Companies in Christo Wiese’s Titan Group announced on Thursday they are suing embattled retailer Steinhoff for R59bn.

The claims relate to investments made by Wiese’s companies in Steinhoff in 2015 and 2016, according to a statement issued by the Titan Group.

Companies that make up the group are claiming cancellation of an agreement entered into with Steinhoff in 2015. “Titan Group subscribed for shares in Steinhoff following the acquisition of Pepkor Limited from the shareholders of Pepkor. They now claim repayment of the subscription amount,” the statement read.

“The second claim relates to the Titan Group’s capital injection into Steinhoff in 2016 to enable it to meet its debt obligations at the time of its acquisition of Mattress Firm in the US.”

.

.

"

 

been saying this for yonks.....Even said before if i was in his shoes  i would do same....simple and streetwise assumption

 

Can see all thse contingemt liabilities warming up now...so much uncertaintity

 

They fraudulently took his crown jewel and gave him fake diamonds...

 

bet if pwc and afs better than expected , that claim will rise to a higher amount....

[Tom]

If I read the reply Bubble got from Steinhoff regarding Wiese shareholding, they mention that Upington Investment still hold the same shareholding in Steinhoff as a year ago.  The Titan sharholding was started in September last year.  I reckon Wiese now has shareholding in both these vehicles.

 

From: https://www.fin24.co...-claim-20180426

 

"

.

.

Companies in Christo Wiese’s Titan Group announced on Thursday they are suing embattled retailer Steinhoff for R59bn.

The claims relate to investments made by Wiese’s companies in Steinhoff in 2015 and 2016, according to a statement issued by the Titan Group.

Companies that make up the group are claiming cancellation of an agreement entered into with Steinhoff in 2015. “Titan Group subscribed for shares in Steinhoff following the acquisition of Pepkor Limited from the shareholders of Pepkor. They now claim repayment of the subscription amount,” the statement read.

“The second claim relates to the Titan Group’s capital injection into Steinhoff in 2016 to enable it to meet its debt obligations at the time of its acquisition of Mattress Firm in the US.”

.

.

"

Edited by Tom, 04 February 2019 - 03:25 PM.

[DayTraderDad]

Wiese probably holds about 12.5% now between the two vehicles....

Yes and maybe even bought more this month!!

[andi222]

It is said here that TITAN had 0 shares in 2018/08/31 in SNH, this is probably false, because they have always had about 6% shares in Steinhoff since Feb-2018, and according to most references and news site, there's no mention of any change, let alone selling all of them and then buying that back.

If TITAN (owned by CW) is to sell its shares in SNH, then the price will simply go to zero, and this is one of the reasons why CW (and PIC) cannot sell these shares, they are unsellable shares, as no big investor will be buying them, and the small mis-lead investors or risk takers don't have that much money.

 

I think this reference is inaccurate (from my personal point of view).

 

Tom, CW still has 6% in Europe (Under the company Upington Investment Holdings). These 6% where left after his margin call of the loans. He now bought another 5 to 6% on the JSE. Giving him around 11-12%. I'm pretty sure he will get his 25% back before April. CW definitely sees value in this company, he wouldn't just invest around 1 billion rand in a company that he values at 0. That 1 Billion rand is around 8% of his whole wealth. He won't just gamble that kind of money.

[Polly]

problem here is some dont know the difference between clever investing and streetwise investing.....BIG difference!!!!

 here let me tell youll the difference...

 

 

Clever : thinks he smarter than the market using financials models, spread sheets , complex calculations , forward projected non nonsensical earnings and cash flow, checking social media and websites for confirmation bias etc etc

 

Streetwise investor : Looks at overall big picture , whats happening on the ground , forward and backward looking and makes up his own mind from previous expediences,and sticks to his guns without getting influenced by social  media and opinion of others..

 

 

Now which type of investor are you?

[Polla]

If I read the reply Bubble got from Steinhoff regarding Wiese shareholding, they mention that Upington Investment still hold the same shareholding in Steinhoff as a year ago.  The Titan sharholding was started in September last year.  I reckon Wiese now has shareholding in both these vehicles.

Wiese probably holds about 12.5% now between the two vehicles....

[DayTraderDad]

If I read the reply Bubble got from Steinhoff regarding Wiese shareholding, they mention that Upington Investment still hold the same shareholding in Steinhoff as a year ago.  The Titan sharholding was started in September last year.  I reckon Wiese now has shareholding in both these vehicles.

Exactly yet the clever investor cannot see this!!!!

[DayTraderDad]

problem here is some dont know the difference between clever investing and streetwise investing.....BIG difference!!!!

If you are a clever investor surely you can put figures down to show how you get to ZERO I have challenged you so many times but every time you comeback with more bla bla.

[DayTraderDad]

 

Steinhoff is

1.bankrupt, FALSE the company has sufficent cash flow to operate.

2.insolvent, FALSE the company has sufficent cash flow to operate.

3.and a loss making company, FALSE you have to take the once off costs to establish if its is loss making.

4.and on top of that it will need in the near future to service it's huge debt at 10% interest rate instead of the previously 5%, so Stienhoff is expected to remain in the loss making, FALSE the company said already selling assets so debt will be reduced.

5.and the CVA dictates that Steinhoff needs the approval of the creditors should it want to sell any of its assets and that it cannot sell at less than the market price (and the creditors will be the ones to determine this price), so slowly Stienhoff will be sucked by the creditors as its debt grows and grows. SURE this is correct so why would they want to sell making losses but they also have the first option of refusal

6. And on top of that the coming court cases and regulatory fines. FALSE all guess work the German authorities have tried for 4 years to find the fraud and so far have found nothing. 

7.Steinhoff is uninvestable, and its share price worth (according to me and many others) is zero, YES its your opinion. Then my question why are you guys so intense about this why not just leave it. Do you need to keep on forcing your opinion???

8.the ones that buy it for more than zero are a high-risk takers or mis-informed. FALSE you are missinformed. The company to the last financials had 50cts Euro NAV so must be with something.

[Polla]

It is said here that TITAN had 0 shares in 2018/08/31 in SNH, this is probably false, because they have always had about 6% shares in Steinhoff since Feb-2018, and according to most references and news site, there's no mention of any change, let alone selling all of them and then buying that back.

If TITAN (owned by CW) is to sell its shares in SNH, then the price will simply go to zero, and this is one of the reasons why CW (and PIC) cannot sell these shares, they are unsellable shares, as no big investor will be buying them, and the small mis-lead investors or risk takers don't have that much money.

 

I think this reference is inaccurate (from my personal point of view).

If I read the reply Bubble got from Steinhoff regarding Wiese shareholding, they mention that Upington Investment still hold the same shareholding in Steinhoff as a year ago.  The Titan sharholding was started in September last year.  I reckon Wiese now has shareholding in both these vehicles.

[Polly]

problem here is some dont know the difference between clever investing and streetwise investing.....BIG difference!!!!

[DayTraderDad]

 

Steinhoff is

1.bankrupt, 

2.insolvent,

3.and a loss making company,

4.and on top of that it will need in the near future to service it's huge debt at 10% interest rate instead of the previously 5%, so Stienhoff is expected to remain in the loss making,

5.and the CVA dictates that Steinhoff needs the approval of the creditors should it want to sell any of its assets and that it cannot sell at less than the market price (and the creditors will be the ones to determine this price), so slowly Stienhoff will be sucked by the creditors as its debt grows and grows.

6. And on top of that the coming court cases and regulatory fines.

7.Steinhoff is uninvestable, and its share price worth (according to me and many others) is zero,

8.the ones that buy it for more than zero are a high-risk takers or mis-informed.

 

Yes there you go just simple bullxxxt no figures as usual. All guess but I can assure you time will come that will put this on your post when you running with your tail down.

[Polly]

 

Steinhoff is

1.bankrupt, 

2.insolvent,

3.and a loss making company,

4.and on top of that it will need in the near future to service it's huge debt at 10% interest rate instead of the previously 5%, so Stienhoff is expected to remain in the loss making,

5.and the CVA dictates that Steinhoff needs the approval of the creditors should it want to sell any of its assets and that it cannot sell at less than the market price (and the creditors will be the ones to determine this price), so slowly Stienhoff will be sucked by the creditors as its debt grows and grows.

6. And on top of that the coming court cases and regulatory fines.

7.Steinhoff is uninvestable, and its share price worth (according to me and many others) is zero,

8.the ones that buy it for more than zero are a high-risk takers or mis-informed and future bagfolders

 

couldn't resist Tom

Edited by Polly, 04 February 2019 - 02:58 PM.