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#6141 DayTraderDad

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 11:10 AM

So please don't come onto the platform and glorify them. They are incompetent and the reason for this continued mess. And let's call a spade a spade they have done disservice to shareholders and this is after three years they have had more than adequate time to at least keep the company alive and not in a coma. Its important for shareholders to excercise their rights against incompetent management because they causing you to loose value and earning big salaries to do it. There is absolutely nothing wrong in recognizing their incompetence.

Zanme you sound like a broken records. We all have heard you over and over so how many more times must we have to endure your bad feelings??????

 

Andi has been a great contribuitor to this forum on the other hand you contribuite nothing and just simply trying to push down out thoats your dislike of management. 


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#6142 Lionelza1

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 10:54 AM

Very simple guys, sell now and forever hold your peace if you don’t like steinies.

There is no point coming on here and moaning about steinhoff and pinning it on Andi. Andi provides sound analysis in my opinion.

Steinhoff May well go to 0, that’s the game though, you playing with fire on this one.

If you don’t like management, write a letter to investor relations and moan to them.


If u don't like management? That must be the dumbest thing I've read... It's not about liking or disliking, it's about doing the job, and so far.. We'll.. Market is talking
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#6143 Bushmanbob

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 09:49 AM

Bushman the only thing that is perceived is your guys fantasies of management doing great things. This was posted on the platform repeatedly when the share was trading at R3 and all the other fairy tales. I am talking facts they have factually destroyed value. You guys isolated Polly and got him off. The only false machonism are you guys. Being fooled by this incompetent bunch. I am trying to make the blinded aware of it so that we can correct it so that I dont loose more money. Your flawed logic that one must sell if they don't like management doesn't make sense. What about the money that I lost?

I understand the point you are making and understand that share price has been battered however, where we differ is that some of us are willing to grit our teeth and allow management to fully complete their plan, given the understanding of the complexity of the situation.

 

Having cautious faith in the executive is not quite the same as glorifying them.  With regards my flawed logic - my point is this -  You have been burned on this equity (and at <80c most of us are in the same boat), you have no faith in management nor their plan - wouldn't it be wise to at least contemplate selling before it hits zero - thereby protecting what little value you have left? In terms of value destruction - the jury, at least for me is out on that one - because if the legal claims are settled SNH will stand a fighting chance and we may find increased value in the medium / long term.  I mean, imagine a balance sheet without the burden of the legal / consultant costs? 

I agree with you and others on issues of remuneration - and I agree that Exec's should be rewarded (at least partially) through equity. Have a great weekend! 

 


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#6144 andi222

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 09:37 AM

Zanme, we get your point that you think management is bad. You have mentioned that since you have joined. But the only valid point you are giving us is that their salary is too high and that the share price is falling. 

May I ask you to please give us examples of where management has made errors/fauls decisions since they where appointed in 2018?

 

I will start to give you some key points why I think they have done a great job so far:

1) - In 2018 they had to ensure the company keeps running- Here they had to find a solution with creditors. If they would have said no we are not giving you 10% interest per annum (Due to the risk Steinhoff has) the creditors would have just pulled the plug and Steinhoff would have been liquidated and Shareholders would have lost everything.

 

2) - Simplifying the Group structure and selling off non-core loss generating operating units. In my opinion they have done this in a structured manner given the current market environment. They have not done any fire sales. They have identified their key operating units they want to keep. Some examples of their sales for you:

- Sold KAP at way higher prices that KAP is currently sitting

- Sold PSG at way higher prices then PSG is currently sitting

- Sold POCO at reasonable prices and solved the legal conflicts

- Sold some Pepkor shares at way higher prices then its currently sitting

- Sold Unitrans at a reasonable price. Unitrans will be generating huge losses now after Corona

- Sold part of Greenlit, after it was sold it went into business rescue

- Sold properties at reasonable fair values

- Sold major part of Conforama, which is still generating losses even after the restructure to to the nature of that business

 

3) They have not diluted the share number by way of a Rights issue or any other form of capital raising. We still have the same number of shares in issue as in 2017. They are even planning to cnacel shares to reduce the issued share number.

 

4) They have cleaned up the mess of the financials and they are back to meet the reporting timelines going forward. They are on track to get a clean audit opinion in future.

 

5) They have supported the key operating units to all return to profitability and to produce a half year EBITDA of 700 Million €.

 

6) They are working on finding a solution to solve all litigations in a global settlement. If this is approved it will reduce future legal costs materially.

 

I know you don't want to see it, but Steinhoff is still sailing and has very strong operating units and once the litigations are solved they can trade them selves out of their debt levels.

 

So please give us some points where you would have done something differently? 


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#6145 Zanme

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 09:07 AM

Bushman the only thing that is perceived is your guys fantasies of management doing great things. This was posted on the platform repeatedly when the share was trading at R3 and all the other fairy tales. I am talking facts they have factually destroyed value. You guys isolated Polly and got him off. The only false machonism are you guys. Being fooled by this incompetent bunch. I am trying to make the blinded aware of it so that we can correct it so that I dont loose more money. Your flawed logic that one must sell if they don't like management doesn't make sense. What about the money that I lost?
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#6146 Bushmanbob

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 08:34 AM

So please don't come onto the platform and glorify them. They are incompetent and the reason for this continued mess. And let's call a spade a spade they have done disservice to shareholders and this is after three years they have had more than adequate time to at least keep the company alive and not in a coma. Its important for shareholders to excercise their rights against incompetent management because they causing you to loose value and earning big salaries to do it. There is absolutely nothing wrong in recognizing their incompetence.

 

You've most certainly recognized what you perceived to be incompetence, repeatedly, and have "come onto the platform", repeatedly, and crucified them, repeatedly.  I can see why your dogged determination has led you to hold on to a share which clearly brings you so much anguish. Masochism is real! 


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#6147 Zanme

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 07:47 AM

So please don't come onto the platform and glorify them. They are incompetent and the reason for this continued mess. And let's call a spade a spade they have done disservice to shareholders and this is after three years they have had more than adequate time to at least keep the company alive and not in a coma. Its important for shareholders to excercise their rights against incompetent management because they causing you to loose value and earning big salaries to do it. There is absolutely nothing wrong in recognizing their incompetence.
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#6148 DeltaHedge

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 07:37 AM

Very simple guys, sell now and forever hold your peace if you don’t like steinies.

There is no point coming on here and moaning about steinhoff and pinning it on Andi. Andi provides sound analysis in my opinion.

Steinhoff May well go to 0, that’s the game though, you playing with fire on this one.

If you don’t like management, write a letter to investor relations and moan to them.
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#6149 Zanme

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 10:06 PM

Actually you have been signing their praises when the share was at R3. It is dropping below 70 cents. And you still hold them in high esteem. You will sing their praises until the company goes insolvent. I am not you. They getting paid to do a job and they have proven to be failures at doing it. But to add salt to the injury compensated themselves handsomely on doing so.
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#6150 Zanme

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 10:01 PM

Please refrain from telling what to do with my shares. I will excercise my right to correct management behavior and hold them responsible for this loss in value.
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#6151 Zanme

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 09:58 PM

Andi im not an oke and you have been so wrong so far its not funny anymore. This management team has destroyed value. I don't get it why you fail to comprehend this. So who must we compare them to? The management at Apple Tesla Amazon?
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#6152 andi222

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 09:36 PM

Lol these okes comparing SA only operating businesses (Tongaat, Eoh) with a multinational multibillion euro revenue generating company.

Guys, numerous here have told you if you don't like what management is doing please feel free to sell all your Steinhoff shares and move on to Polly's shares such as Delta Properties or Grand Parade.
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#6153 skeez

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 06:26 PM

Investing through these cycles has taught me a lot about the importance of effective management in turning a company around. Take Tongaat for example. Similar predicament to Steinhoff. Management developed a clear strategy to turn things around and have been executing on it. The chairman took a salary sacrifice. They didn't go overboad with consultants and in my opinion are bringing things back on track. I then look at my investments in Steinhoff and EOH management wasted millions on consultants. EOH fiddled with the structure so did Steinhoff by creating fancy committees. Both companies paid their management huge bonuses. Both recruited expensive resources. I am learning that when management sets out to hire expensive resources and pays themselves too much to solve problems it is a sign to exit the investment. I am learning by having invested in both of these dogs that you can have great assets but give it to the wrong management and they will destroy value. Or you can have average assets but give it to the right management and they will create value.

With EOH if they meet their debt payments for November and January - you looking at a completely different business. The value of the consultants I can see. Steinhoff on the other hand is a complete waste of time and money. I am glad I got out only 20% down. Polly was 100 % right. This is going all the way to zero.
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#6154 Zanme

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 05:50 PM

Investing through these cycles has taught me a lot about the importance of effective management in turning a company around. Take Tongaat for example. Similar predicament to Steinhoff. Management developed a clear strategy to turn things around and have been executing on it. The chairman took a salary sacrifice. They didn't go overboad with consultants and in my opinion are bringing things back on track. I then look at my investments in Steinhoff and EOH management wasted millions on consultants. EOH fiddled with the structure so did Steinhoff by creating fancy committees. Both companies paid their management huge bonuses. Both recruited expensive resources. I am learning that when management sets out to hire expensive resources and pays themselves too much to solve problems it is a sign to exit the investment. I am learning by having invested in both of these dogs that you can have great assets but give it to the wrong management and they will destroy value. Or you can have average assets but give it to the right management and they will create value.
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#6155 Tom

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Posted 23 September 2020 - 02:31 PM

15/9/2020 Citigroup Inc. 100 684 415 Put option 4,97%
15/9/2020 Citigroup Inc. 75 513 318 Call-option 4,97%
 
These might rattle the price (up or down) and it could be that one is taken to cover the plan for the other.
I think probably they want to short (so they're paying a premium for it already which put them under pressure to short it soon, or maybe they're busy doing it already), and just reserving the call as a cover (where they don't have to pay any money at all if they never exercise it), or worse in case of any bounce after their short they go and exercise the call-option.
 
Shorting 100 684 415 shares is enough to push the price considerably down.

Edited by Tom, 23 September 2020 - 02:35 PM.

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#6156 DayTraderDad

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Posted 23 September 2020 - 11:46 AM

DTD, Citigroup mainly has put and call option. Doubt they will exercise these as they should be around 5 Euro each lol.

 

Also after the 3% is breached no one needs to file anything anymore. So all the ones below 3% have sold. Investec has sold, Blackrock has sold etc. 

 

So its only PIC with their holding and Vanguard. Citigroup will most probably not exercise those call and puts at the current levels lol.

Andi sure I agree however that is what is in the register suggest you guys download the CSV file. For example it shows how CW went from Lots of shares to Zero.


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#6157 andi222

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Posted 23 September 2020 - 10:35 AM

DTD, Citigroup mainly has put and call option. Doubt they will exercise these as they should be around 5 Euro each lol.

 

Also after the 3% is breached no one needs to file anything anymore. So all the ones below 3% have sold. Investec has sold, Blackrock has sold etc. 

 

So its only PIC with their holding and Vanguard. Citigroup will most probably not exercise those call and puts at the current levels lol.


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#6158 DayTraderDad

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Posted 23 September 2020 - 08:44 AM

Datum meldingsplicht Meldingsplichtige Plaats Soort aandeel Kapitaalbelang Stemrecht Aantal aandelen Aantal stemmen Aantal equivalente aandelen Soort aandeel ENG Toelichting 07/12/2015 M.J.  Jooste Amsterdam Gewoon aandeel Reëel Reëel 68 247 244 1 255 182 420   Ordinary share

Deficult to read. Basically says:

 

Aantal aandelen Aantal stemmen 68 247 244 1 255 182 420
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#6159 DayTraderDad

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Posted 23 September 2020 - 08:32 AM

Jooste share volume versus percentage seems off. Looks like a Zuma number ...is it 100million or 10 million cant be 1thousand million

Datum meldingsplicht Meldingsplichtige Plaats Soort aandeel Kapitaalbelang Stemrecht Aantal aandelen Aantal stemmen Aantal equivalente aandelen Soort aandeel ENG Toelichting 07/12/2015 M.J.  Jooste Amsterdam Gewoon aandeel Reëel Reëel 68 247 244 1 255 182 420   Ordinary share
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#6160 Investment novice

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Posted 22 September 2020 - 05:30 PM

Jooste share volume versus percentage seems off. Looks like a Zuma number ...is it 100million or 10 million cant be 1thousand million
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