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#8621 DayTraderDad

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:29 AM

The CRE Clearances which had been a prerequisite demanded by the creditors in the CVA conditions refers.
 
With the Western Australia Government now undergoing restructuring and may possibly request further applications down the line, it seems that Steinhoff and the lenders are removing this demand to get the CVA approved. 
 
They are speaking of 20 working days.  So if the close off date of 29 May is used 20 working days later (add one day for the public holiday on 3 June) that would take us to approximately 28th June which is also the last working day in June 2019. 
 
If Steinhoff pull this off, it would be a miracle.  But I think that the deadlines are far too onerous.
 
I wonder now if it is possible that they may release 1H19 financials by 28 June ahead of the AFS2018 (similar to what they did last year and the AFS2017).
 
Fine margins here...
 
Best Regards
Captainfrom82


Interesting thoughts would be a great idea to release the H1 2019 first.

I am just wondering why creditor need more time to approve the request?

Is there a surprise on the way?
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#8622 Captainfrom82

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:02 AM

Some CVA feedback

 

Delayed until 29 May.

 

The CRE Clearances which had been a prerequisite demanded by the creditors in the CVA conditions refers.

 

With the Western Australia Government now undergoing restructuring and may possibly request further applications down the line, it seems that Steinhoff and the lenders are removing this demand to get the CVA approved. 

 

They are speaking of 20 working days.  So if the close off date of 29 May is used 20 working days later (add one day for the public holiday on 3 June) that would take us to approximately 28th June which is also the last working day in June 2019. 

 

If Steinhoff pull this off, it would be a miracle.  But I think that the deadlines are far too onerous.

 

I wonder now if it is possible that they may release 1H19 financials by 28 June ahead of the AFS2018 (similar to what they did last year and the AFS2017).

 

Fine margins here...

 

Best Regards

Captainfrom82


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#8623 Snippit

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 10:12 AM

JSE, Steinhoff, SNH
Steinhoff looks to have been working within Minor wave 2. This can be 2 or the A of the 2nd zigzag, either way it indicates as a low. FWIW.

https://jsecharts.bl...inhoff-snh.html

 

snh-d-270519.png

 

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#8624 Bubble

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 07:30 PM

Some CVA feedback

 

Delayed until 29 May.

Attached Files


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#8625 Captainfrom82

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 03:56 PM

I believe that the shareholder law suites will not take precedence to creditors because yesterday
while doing research I ran into a law wording "Piercing the corporate veil"

The basic definition:

Piercing the corporate veil refers to a situation in which courts put aside limited liability and hold a corporation's
shareholders or directors personally liable for the corporation's actions or debts.
Veil piercing is most common in close corporations.

https://www.law.corn..._corporate_veil

Interesting enough this also applies in Dutch Law:

https://business-net...etherlands.html

So looks like to me if the shareholders force their hand then creditors may use this to their advantage.

All I can see is lots of arguments coming up and the stupid shareholders going to make lawyers reach and still not going
to get much and would have made more money buying more shares at this price and let the company grow.

In my view investors were greedy then so blinded by MJ that they could not see reason, now greedy again so blinded that
cannot see the real winners going to be professional lawyers that all they do is jump from company to company to make
money from class actions.

 

Brings back memories of Corporate Law and Governance. 

 

But I do not think that it is a correct interpretation of piercing the corporate veil.

 

Normally a juristic entity (legal persona) has a separate legal standing, and can sue or be sued in its own capacity.  The liability of the business is then limited to what the business can settle (typically the NAV).  The directors or other officers cannot be sued or held liable in the private capacity.  

 

Piercing the corporate veil relates to the position where a director acted fraudulently.  The Court could then pierce the corporate veil and not limit the remedies available to the injured party to only the assets of the company, but could via an order of court could hold the delinquent directors responsible in their personal and private capacity.  In very rare occasions the delinquent director could be held liable for criminal negligence as well.

 

The above however, does not absolve the company from liability.

 

Steinhoff will be held accountable.  There is no  doubt of this.  However the co-respondents - all the auditors and various specialists engaged prior to Dec 2017 will be held negligent.  There are 43 co-respondents.

 

In other words, although Steinhoff will be held accountable for the lawsuits, they will in turn jointly and severally hold their own auditors etc accountable in their (Steinhoff's) lawsuits.  This case will play out in the courts for a very, very long time.

 

Best Regards

Captainfrom82


Edited by Captainfrom82, 24 May 2019 - 03:59 PM.

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#8626 DayTraderDad

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 02:59 PM

I believe that the shareholder law suites will not take precedence to creditors because yesterday
while doing research I ran into a law wording "Piercing the corporate veil"

The basic definition:

Piercing the corporate veil refers to a situation in which courts put aside limited liability and hold a corporation's
shareholders or directors personally liable for the corporation's actions or debts.
Veil piercing is most common in close corporations.

https://www.law.corn..._corporate_veil

Interesting enough this also applies in Dutch Law:

https://business-net...etherlands.html

So looks like to me if the shareholders force their hand then creditors may use this to their advantage.

All I can see is lots of arguments coming up and the stupid shareholders going to make lawyers reach and still not going
to get much and would have made more money buying more shares at this price and let the company grow.

In my view investors were greedy then so blinded by MJ that they could not see reason, now greedy again so blinded that
cannot see the real winners going to be professional lawyers that all they do is jump from company to company to make
money from class actions.
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#8627 Investment novice

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 02:40 PM

Steinhoff is losing this case.... And they winning their countersuit.... The question that is unanswered is the quantum of the settlement. And this is certainly not the 90% eroded value which is in any venet due to shareholder dumping.

There will have to be a valuation date and peg in the ground... And then subtract from that the erosion of value from all transactions such as MF.. Kika... Etc.... Then compare adjusted to a current without litigation... Sounds really stupid to even look at a calculation hence.... Think about how the courts are going to have to figure this out.... 5 to 7 billion usd is the number.... Settled with equity....

I still maintain snh much better off delisting... For 1 to2 billion euros and then handing over equity to settle claimants and relisting...



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#8628 Milo

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 01:15 PM

If the creditors approve the final financial restructuring steps today it means that they trust that the litigation won’t damage Steinhoff too much. Lawyers only here to enrich themselves and don’t really care about the company or shareholders anyway. Steinhoff will have counter-measures in place.


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#8629 DayTraderDad

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:54 AM

Interesting article:

24.05.2019 ( www.4investors.de ) - In the already weak market environment on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange, the Steinhoff share caught an even weaker day yesterday. After the share price of the SDAX-listed trading group has remained stable in the last few days above chart technical support between 0.088 / 0.089 € and 0.083 / 0.085 €, took place yesterday the dam break. The sell signals let the share price of Steinhoff International fall in the meantime to 0.0816 euro. With 0.0848 euros and 5.36 percent price loss, it was finally recovered somewhat from the XETRA trade. Current indications on Friday morning are quoted at 0.085 / 0.087 euros.

"Pullback or approach to the rebreak?" Is the question in the technical analysis for the Steinhoff share. However, a move back above 0.088 / 0.089 euros and in addition 0.092 / 0.093 euros would be a stable bullish trading signal for the company's share, shaken further by the consequences of an accounting scandal uncovered at the end of 2017. While the Group has stabilized, remediation remains a Herculean task, due in part to high levels of debt and a growing mountain of litigation .

Without a rise back above the two mentioned resistance brands, the share price of Steinhoff International continues to plunge into the direction of Allzeittief, which is quoted at 0.071 euros. This is especially true if the paper can not even stabilize above 0.083 / 0.085 euros or the paper rebounds at the zone around the 9-cent mark down again and then falls below 0.083 / 0.085 euros. In such a scenario, it could quickly go down in the direction of 0.075 / 0.077 euros, where the last supports before a possible test of the all-time low can be seen.
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#8630 DayTraderDad

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:33 AM

Dad - am I missing something here...are we expecting news today?  Aren't we gonna have to wait till end of June?


Today at 5pm UK time is the cut off time to receive the consent letter from creditor to approve the Request No.3 to the CVA.

The importance is if creditors agree then CVA will finally be implemented and restructure of debt done.

For me a very important step.
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#8631 Dell

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:24 AM

Dad - am I missing something here...are we expecting news today?  Aren't we gonna have to wait till end of June?


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#8632 DayTraderDad

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:13 AM

With some of the litigation now a go, will the creditors have an incentive to opt out of CVA?
- Is this old news/option that is now becoming reality? Creditors knew this before and factored it in....
- Someone mentioned that a logged legal case moves shareholders equal to creditors in the pecking order. Is this true?
 
Timing of events/action is becoming the deciding factor of survival.
 
Where is Captain? Very worried that he/she has gone missing.


I guess we will find out today.
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#8633 Bubble

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:22 AM

With some of the litigation now a go, will the creditors have an incentive to opt out of CVA?

- Is this old news/option that is now becoming reality? Creditors knew this before and factored it in....

- Someone mentioned that a logged legal case moves shareholders equal to creditors in the pecking order. Is this true?

 

Timing of events/action is becoming the deciding factor of survival.

 

Where is Captain? Very worried that he/she has gone missing.

 


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#8634 DayTraderDad

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 12:32 PM

And share price falls due to perception... And how do you value that... Different shareholders exited and different prices.. What is the floor....

Investment bankers, auditors, directors insurers... Everyone going to cough up... Including... The crafty ones...

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I don't think the pull back is only due to the news from Germany courts. It has more to do with world markets and Brexit.
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#8635 DayTraderDad

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 12:30 PM

Fastern your seat belts brance for the USA open its going to a rough ride!!!

WE could well be testing the R1.20 again think there is a world market serious pull back on the way.

Think Wall Street completing a head and shoulders.
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#8636 Investment novice

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 12:30 PM

And share price falls due to perception... And how do you value that... Different shareholders exited and different prices.. What is the floor....

Investment bankers, auditors, directors insurers... Everyone going to cough up... Including... The crafty ones...

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#8637 andi222

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 12:24 PM

Interesting how people still get scared of news like that. I mean it was obvious that the hearing would take place. However in my opinion shareholders won't get a cent. And even if they do the auditors will be responsible as they have signed off financials statements until 2016. Auditors have insurance in place for these kind of claims. Steinhoff is still in the process to find out how much the claims are, thus the SENS a month ago. This will help them to launch the counter claims. 

 

 


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#8638 Investment novice

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 12:16 PM

The question is not whether the claimants win or lose... It's the quantum.... Win and get cents... And interesting to see how the valuation would be determined... As significant portion is demand driven...
And importantly how would this link to snh able to counter claim and does the one settlement depend in part to the other settlement...

Probably add another 5 billion euros....

Cheaper still to delist and settle the legal claimants with equity and re list




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#8639 DayTraderDad

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 11:12 AM

Clear the way for a class action lawsuit against Steinhoff

https://boerse.ard.d...einhoff100.html

The Steinhoff investors who were damaged by the fall in price can hope for damages. You can conclude a class action lawsuit, which the Frankfurt district court now opens.

Tilp's lawyers, who have been legally representing small investors for years, spoke of a breakthrough on Thursday. The Frankfurt district court has cleared the way for the first German class action lawsuit against Steinhoff. The judges have issued an order for reference under the Capital Investor Model Law. Within the next few weeks, a sample claimant will be appointed. Then the trial can start before the Frankfurt Higher Regional Court - in all likelihood this year.

Has Steinhoff informed the investors too late?
During the trial, the judges must clarify whether Steinhoff has not informed investors or not in good time about the accounting irregularities and is entitled to this compensation for the enormous price losses . "I am sure that we will prove Steinhoff a large number of breaches of duty successfully and thereby help investors to win," said Maximilian Weiss of the Tilp Rechtsanwaltsgesellschaft.
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#8640 DayTraderDad

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:43 AM

Swiss giant pays $100 million for Steinhoff warehouse

https://www.afr.com/...20190522-p51pzl

Global reinsurance giant Swiss Re has paid almost $100 million to buy a Sydney distribution centre offered for sale by embattled furniture retailer Steinhoff in one of the biggest individual warehouse deals of the year.

The 35,000 square metre facility at 1 Eucalyptus Place, Eastern Creek, was
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