15225 replies to this topic

[Tom]

So it's delayed till "7 November 2018".

To be delayed and delayed and delayed.

Final judgement will be after the yet next delay and delay and delay......

[Ms Jet]

Agree with Tom..and price dropped so radically as people sold out... basically wrong was done for sure but if you didnt cash in at a high npt anyone elses fault..some people cashed in their naspers at 4000 no good crying now its 3200...get a life !

[DayTraderDad]

Well put Tom, Haha would like to see the Board of SNH join VEB to claim damages for Steinhoff from Deloitte!!! After all its only Jooster that knew what was going on so I agree this is going to be very very messy. I think buy 7 Nov SNH defence will have all the information required from the PwC and certainly going to make things interesting.

https://www.veb.net/...-beursschandaal

 

Joke of the day comment from VEB very interested in Shareholders Hahahaha: 

 

VEB director Paul Koster: " This is a right decision. It enables injured Steinhoff investors to quickly get a statement about Steinhoff's actions via the Dutch court. That is in the interest of shareholders and company. " 

[Tom]

"A request for suspension pending proceedings in Germany, where Steinhoff has a stock exchange listing, was also rejected."

 

Good it was rejected.

Edited by Tom, 26 September 2018 - 12:23 PM.

[DayTraderDad]

Did Steinhoff give the share holders a written guarantee that the accounting reports were, are, or will always be correct, or not fraudulent !!! there's no such.

Steinhoff duty was to appoint an auditing committee, and and external auditing firm (e.g. Deloitte), which they did according to the rules.

 

Steinhoff itself (according to me) can also be seen as a victim of the accounting irregularities (if accounting irregularities are proven and proofs are accepted after being tested in the court).

 

Deloitte should have followed up and objected early and during in 2018, on a day by day basis and way before the end of the year, on any accounting that they think might be wrong, and not wait until the last month, and 2 to 3 years after the previous investigations to say that they will not sign the financials, and that they want an auditing company approved by them to do the audit, while they themselves are auditors and they were paid a lot of money to audit and investigate on timely basis, which they recklessly failed to do, which created the whole disaster.

 

All in all the court proceedings will have to take years and years (we looking at 5 to 10 years, if settled outside the court, otherwise maybe more).

Well put Tom, Haha would like to see the Board of SNH join VEB to claim damages for Steinhoff from Deloitte!!! After all its only Jooster that knew what was going on so I agree this is going to be very very messy. I think buy 7 Nov SNH defence will have all the information required from the PwC and certainly going to make things interesting.

[Tom]

Did Steinhoff give the share holders a written guarantee that the accounting reports were, are, or will always be correct, or not fraudulent !!! there's no such.

Steinhoff duty was to appoint an auditing committee, and and external auditing firm (e.g. Deloitte), which they did according to the rules.

 

Steinhoff itself (according to me) can also be seen as a victim of the accounting irregularities (if accounting irregularities are proven and proofs are accepted after being tested in the court).

 

Deloitte should have followed up and objected early and during in 2018, on a day by day basis and way before the end of the year, on any accounting that they think might be wrong, and not wait until the last month, and 2 to 3 years after the previous investigations to say that they will not sign the financials, and that they want an auditing company approved by them to do the audit, while they themselves are auditors and they were paid a lot of money to audit and investigate on timely basis, which they recklessly failed to do, which created the whole disaster.

 

All in all the court proceedings will have to take years and years (we looking at 5 to 10 years, if settled outside the court, otherwise maybe more).

Edited by Tom, 26 September 2018 - 12:11 PM.

[Investment novice]

Claim Steinhoff in the Netherlands for a judge
Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:01

AMSTERDAM (AFN) - A claim by investors who feel misled by the originally South African furniture giant Steinhoff is brought to justice in the Netherlands. Steinhoff has until November 7 to respond substantively to the indictment, according to the Vereniging van Effectenbezitters (VEB).
The stock market value of Steinhoff plummeted after accounting fraud at the company came to light and financial problems arose. As a result, investors saw a large part of the value of their investment smoke. They feel that Steinhoff has not been open about the situation and demands compensation.
Steinhoff, after Ikea the largest home furnishing store in the world, is of the opinion that the Dutch judge is not competent to judge the case, but the court dismissed that defense Wednesday. A request for suspension pending proceedings in Germany, where Steinhoff has a stock exchange listing, was also rejected.

We may see a lot more of the pwc report surface earlier than December in the response to the court. Snh has to demonstrate that fault is not yet established and has to somehow defer the court ruling which is possible... Dutch law allows for deferment

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[leo]

Claim Steinhoff in the Netherlands for a judge
Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:01

AMSTERDAM (AFN) - A claim by investors who feel misled by the originally South African furniture giant Steinhoff is brought to justice in the Netherlands. Steinhoff has until November 7 to respond substantively to the indictment, according to the Vereniging van Effectenbezitters (VEB).
The stock market value of Steinhoff plummeted after accounting fraud at the company came to light and financial problems arose. As a result, investors saw a large part of the value of their investment smoke. They feel that Steinhoff has not been open about the situation and demands compensation.
Steinhoff, after Ikea the largest home furnishing store in the world, is of the opinion that the Dutch judge is not competent to judge the case, but the court dismissed that defense Wednesday. A request for suspension pending proceedings in Germany, where Steinhoff has a stock exchange listing, was also rejected.

Tx P daddy

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[Lionelza1]

Just as an add on.. I bought 80000 shares of choppies at 40c this morning. The Zimbabwe issue Is a dampener on an extremely fragile jse. Price knocked well below its value. And definately an acquisition target now. Zimbabwe shareholding will be settled and even if written off does not result in a share valuation currently.
I see this share easy to R1. 60 with impairment and results missed by 30%
Footprint is significant.

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Great buy there IN.....thanks for the info

[DayTraderDad]

Latest news: https://www.beurs.nl..._medium=twitter

Claim Steinhoff in the Netherlands for a judge

Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:01

AMSTERDAM (AFN) - A claim by investors who feel misled by the originally South African furniture giant Steinhoff is brought to justice in the Netherlands. Steinhoff has until November 7 to respond substantively to the indictment, according to the Vereniging van Effectenbezitters (VEB).

The stock market value of Steinhoff plummeted after accounting fraud at the company came to light and financial problems arose. As a result, investors saw a large part of the value of their investment smoke. They feel that Steinhoff has not been open about the situation and demands compensation.

Steinhoff, after Ikea the largest home furnishing store in the world, is of the opinion that the Dutch judge is not competent to judge the case, but the court dismissed that defense Wednesday. A request for suspension pending proceedings in Germany, where Steinhoff has a stock exchange listing, was also rejected.

[DayTraderDad]

Latest news: https://www.beurs.nl..._medium=twitter

 

[DayTraderDad]

It will depend on what exactly happened here.

The Hemisphere example would not warrant a law suit because it's based on accounting differences and opinion on how to implement accounting assumptions.

But a willing attempt to inflate Revenue and manipulate figures is against the law and not due to different assumptions followed.

But this is all theoretical, and one will need to see what the PWC report finds.

Yes but look at the damage that impairment of Euro1 bil did destroy Euro 0.23 from the NAV which would be 0.81 instead of the reported 0.58 not to mention all the news papers running with comments that are very negative. The same is if you have a vertical integrated business why is it not possible to have one part selling its product to the other along the vertical chain? Anyway time will cure everything.

[Matrix]

Well put! But this is exactly my point is it illegal to do what you mention? Evaluation of assets varies from person to person. For example the latest evaluation of Hemisphere they don't take into account rentals that are earned by own companies so there is already rubbish because there is nothing wrong having a corporate to have a property wing that rents out properties to other parts of the company and by doing that they generate income. So the evaluation drops from Euro2 bil to Euro 1 bil just by different opinion. So the money that Conforama (or other business of SNH) pays for renting property from Hemisphere has simply disappeared. 

 

It will depend on what exactly happened here.

The Hemisphere example would not warrant a law suit because it's based on accounting differences and opinion on how to implement accounting assumptions.

But a willing attempt to inflate Revenue and manipulate figures is against the law and not due to different assumptions followed.

But this is all theoretical, and one will need to see what the PWC report finds.

[DayTraderDad]

Wonder if we going to hit the 230 ish today...

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Could well be today it will go either way pending the court announcement. Haha I am keeping cash in my draw!

[leo]

Wonder if we going to hit the 230 ish today...

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[DayTraderDad]

It's not about a guarantee that the price won't drop.

Obviously if a share price drops a company cannot be sued.

 

In this specific case it's about misrepresentation.

IF (it has to be proven) Jooste and SNH management for example used different SNH companies and inter-company loans to boost profit they created a false balance sheet and income statement.

This was (theoretically) done to inflate figures and obtain more loans to expand.

Then the company (or specific individual) can then be sued because they misrepresented figures in order to willingly dupe people into believe it was going well.

Well put! But this is exactly my point is it illegal to do what you mention? Evaluation of assets varies from person to person. For example the latest evaluation of Hemisphere they don't take into account rentals that are earned by own companies so there is already rubbish because there is nothing wrong having a corporate to have a property wing that rents out properties to other parts of the company and by doing that they generate income. So the evaluation drops from Euro2 bil to Euro 1 bil just by different opinion. So the money that Conforama (or other business of SNH) pays for renting property from Hemisphere has simply disappeared. 

[leo]

You forgetting about ISA... those are the rules for auditing standards, as oppose to accounting standards. In South Africa we use accounting standards IFRS or IFRS for SMEs.

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[Lionelza1]

Haha. Go read the t and c s on an audit engagement letter....

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lol i doubt any t's and c's could help them. i said initially they must suffer the same fate of that of KPMG....and so they must!

 

They responsibility to question every transaction and to have proof thereof.....monies where exchnged under the table bro....some1 got greedy

[DayTraderDad]

If anything, Deloitte should beheld accountable AND responsible for this, afterall they are the PROFESSIONALS that charge huge fees for their services.

 The Arseholes are pretty quiet in all of this

To my knowledge accounting is done according to GAAP. My take is all along Deloitte agreed to what was happening but because of issues coming to light with accounting firms like KPMG they starting to review their standards and hence why they did not want to sign the financials. This will eventually all come out and I think there are going to be many journalist embarrassed.

 

The definition of GAAP:

GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles) is a collection of commonly-followed accounting rules and standards for financial reporting. The acronym is pronounced "gap." GAAP specifications include definitions of concepts and principles, as well as industry-specific rules.

 

Interesting article: https://www.reuters....g-idUSKBN1HN33J

[leo]

If anything, Deloitte should beheld accountable AND responsible for this, afterall they are the PROFESSIONALS that charge huge fees for their services.
The Arseholes are pretty quiet in all of this

Haha. Go read the t and c s on an audit engagement letter....

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