15225 replies to this topic

[Ram85]

Anyone know what's up this morning... Share prices not updating on any of the exchanges... 

https://za.investing...ational-hld-(j)

[Polly]

I still cant figure who is responsible for large volume closing trades..today some 23 million shares sold and bought???
Is his rebalancing??? Or trades?

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Auction from 4.50 pm to 5.00 pm always have large volume trades on most liquid counters. Easiest time to buy or dispose shares.

[Queen B]

Huge closing volume!

I reckon its trades, but that's my 2 cents worth

Monday may be a whole new ballgame again.

[Investment novice]

I still cant figure who is responsible for large volume closing trades..today some 23 million shares sold and bought???
Is his rebalancing??? Or trades?

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[Queen B]

Agree with your thoughts Investment Novice. Some peeps have lost big Moola on SNH.

For the bottom of the barrel investors, this could be equally devastating to their portfolios if it crashes and burns towards zero.

I have had fun day trading this share. I am sure many others are day trading too.

Just keep heads up and close to any SENS that may arise

[Investment novice]

Steinhoff investors will not recoup their losses
BL PREMIUM
15 JUNE 2018 - 05:09 ANN CROTTY

Investors who lost billions of rand when Steinhoff International’s shares collapsed amid one of SA’s worst accounting scandals have very little chance of recouping their losses, according to one of the country’s largest fund managers.




Excluding Steinhoff Africa Retail (Star), which is in the process of changing its name to Pepkor as its seeks to distance itself from its scandal-hit parent, the businesses are "heavily loss-making" and "there’s little probability of material upside in the equity once Steinhoff repays its creditors and settles any potential legal claims", Coronation Fund Managers said.
In a letter to clients seen by Business Day, Kirshni Totaram, global head of institutional business at Coronation, said the company had sold its "remaining position in Steinhoff", prompted by an adjustment of the investment case to reflect additional information that had come to light since January. The extent of the overstatement of the historical profitability of Steinhoff was far worse than expected, she said.

It is unclear whether the 'remaining position' referred only to Steinhoff shares held on behalf of Coronation’s institutional clients or to all of its clients

It is a blow for Steinhoff, which is struggling to stay in business after the accounting scandal wiped out more than 90% of its value. The company has more than 40 local brands in more than 30 countries, according to its website.
On Thursday, a spokesperson for the fund manager referred Business Day to a Bloomberg screen grab revealing that the fund manager had sold off a substantial chunk of its shares, leaving it with 2.62% of the scandal-hit retail group. The company would give no further information.
It is unclear whether the "remaining position" referred only to Steinhoff shares held on behalf of Coronation’s institutional clients or to all of its clients. Business Day was unable to speak to Totaram about the letter. CEO Anton Pillay and chief investment officer Karl Leinberger did not respond to requests for comment on Thursday.
Coronation, which had one of the largest institutional exposures to Steinhoff, lost an estimated R14bn in the months after the December disclosure of "accounting irregularities".
In January, Leinberger wrote a detailed account of why Coronation had built up a hefty investment in Steinhoff. At that stage he wrote that stakeholders were in an information vacuum.
He said possible outcomes ranged from best-case scenario of tax evasion and inadequate disclosure of related-party transactions to a worst-case scenario of sophisticated fraud orchestrated by the CEO.
"The stock could just as easily be worth more than the current market price as it could be less. At current prices, we are therefore likely to retain our equity holding in the company until more information has been made available publicly," wrote Leinberger.
At that stage the share price had already slid to about R7. On Thursday it closed at R1.26.
Totaram told clients this week that the decision to sell would not prevent them from participating in any group legal action against Steinhoff.
"It is our intention to take appropriate legal action against Steinhoff on behalf of all clients who wish us to do so, and to the extent legally possible, against any other parties that were complicit in any wrongdoing." The information that contributed to Coronation’s reassessment of its Steinhoff exposure included Christo Wiese’s decision to sue the company for about R59bn.
"The sale of 6% of Steinhoff’s stake in Star through an accelerated book build for a consideration far below our assessment of fair value" had contributed to the reassessment, she said
This week the Steinhoff crisis spread wider as Dutch shareholder association VEB announced it had issued summons against Deloitte for its audit work at Steinhoff.
crottya@businesslive.co.za

Shooh a whole article to state the obvious.
Disposal fantastic as reduces burden, credit risk, improved margin, focus on other entities..etc
Article refers to snh assets as all loss making....only true if all financials lumped together and impairments included.
Legal cases quantum and balance sheet required to get a sense of valuation.
Snh will also aim to make recoveries which we may assume is minimum.
Great to see legal efforts against other parties with big pockets as this will be where most of the recoup will be made apart from some share recovery.
Its now a waiting game..
1. Agreement on restructure
2. Financials and balance sheet
3. Forensic report.

At the end of three years it may not be necessary to repay debt..............could refinance if the company is cleansed and there are some legal settlements.

We continue to pray for some recovery for shareholders and lots of profit for the bottom of barrel scrapers....

Hoping the mal practice insurance for auditors bankers and directors hav big pockets....and of course the companies themselves...wonder how much blae snh can defer...and what the company liability will be versus individual fraudsters...
Not clear cut..but certainly unlikey for shareholders to recoup losses from snh...that is lose lose....

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[Procrastinator]

It is a blow for Steinhoff, which is struggling to stay in business after the accounting scandal wiped out more than 90% of its value. The company has more than 40 local brands in more than 30 countries, according to its website.
On Thursday, a spokesperson for the fund manager referred Business Day to a Bloomberg screen grab revealing that the fund manager had sold off a substantial chunk of its shares, leaving it with 2.62% of the scandal-hit retail group. The company would give no further information.
It is unclear whether the "remaining position" referred only to Steinhoff shares held on behalf of Coronation’s institutional clients or to all of its clients. Business Day was unable to speak to Totaram about the letter. CEO Anton Pillay and chief investment officer Karl Leinberger did not respond to requests for comment on Thursday.
Coronation, which had one of the largest institutional exposures to Steinhoff, lost an estimated R14bn in the months after the December disclosure of "accounting irregularities".
In January, Leinberger wrote a detailed account of why Coronation had built up a hefty investment in Steinhoff. At that stage he wrote that stakeholders were in an information vacuum.
He said possible outcomes ranged from best-case scenario of tax evasion and inadequate disclosure of related-party transactions to a worst-case scenario of sophisticated fraud orchestrated by the CEO.
"The stock could just as easily be worth more than the current market price as it could be less. At current prices, we are therefore likely to retain our equity holding in the company until more information has been made available publicly," wrote Leinberger.
At that stage the share price had already slid to about R7. On Thursday it closed at R1.26.
Totaram told clients this week that the decision to sell would not prevent them from participating in any group legal action against Steinhoff.
"It is our intention to take appropriate legal action against Steinhoff on behalf of all clients who wish us to do so, and to the extent legally possible, against any other parties that were complicit in any wrongdoing." The information that contributed to Coronation’s reassessment of its Steinhoff exposure included Christo Wiese’s decision to sue the company for about R59bn.
"The sale of 6% of Steinhoff’s stake in Star through an accelerated book build for a consideration far below our assessment of fair value" had contributed to the reassessment, she said
This week the Steinhoff crisis spread wider as Dutch shareholder association VEB announced it had issued summons against Deloitte for its audit work at Steinhoff.crottya@businesslive.co.za

Shooh a whole article to state the obvious.
Disposal fantastic as reduces burden, credit risk, improved margin, focus on other entities..etc
Article refers to snh assets as all loss making....only true if all financials lumped together and impairments included.
Legal cases quantum and balance sheet required to get a sense of valuation.
Snh will also aim to make recoveries which we may assume is minimum.
Great to see legal efforts against other parties with big pockets as this will be where most of the recoup will be made apart from some share recovery.
Its now a waiting game..
1. Agreement on restructure
2. Financials and balance sheet
3. Forensic report.
At the end of three years it may not be necessary to repay debt..............could refinance if the company is cleansed and there are some legal settlements.
We continue to pray for some recovery for shareholders and lots of profit for the bottom of barrel scrapers....
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To take legal action against auditors that may have deep pockets is a long shot I reckon.
The auditors may have had a liability cap agreement in place when they sign an agreement to undertake audits so deep pockets may not be able to be picked by hungry law firms. (Would be very surprised if they did not have such in their contracts)
The claimants would likely have to prove fraudulent intent by the auditors in order to have any claim considered whatsoever.
If the auditors just did standard audits of accounts then there would be no grounds to claim agaist them.
(Seeing that the fraud was comitted by Jooste and co, frontrunning evidence having come to light recently in deals done in Australia a number of years ago would tend to support the argument that SNH management were adept at fraud, kind of tough to prove that the auditors were the main antagonists.)
German case law on this topic may be worthwhile looking into, not the first time 3rd parties have attempted to sue auditors in similar cases.

[Investment novice]

Steinhoff investors will not recoup their losses
BL PREMIUM
15 JUNE 2018 - 05:09 ANN CROTTY

Investors who lost billions of rand when Steinhoff International’s shares collapsed amid one of SA’s worst accounting scandals have very little chance of recouping their losses, according to one of the country’s largest fund managers.




Excluding Steinhoff Africa Retail (Star), which is in the process of changing its name to Pepkor as its seeks to distance itself from its scandal-hit parent, the businesses are "heavily loss-making" and "there’s little probability of material upside in the equity once Steinhoff repays its creditors and settles any potential legal claims", Coronation Fund Managers said.
In a letter to clients seen by Business Day, Kirshni Totaram, global head of institutional business at Coronation, said the company had sold its "remaining position in Steinhoff", prompted by an adjustment of the investment case to reflect additional information that had come to light since January. The extent of the overstatement of the historical profitability of Steinhoff was far worse than expected, she said.

It is unclear whether the 'remaining position' referred only to Steinhoff shares held on behalf of Coronation’s institutional clients or to all of its clients

It is a blow for Steinhoff, which is struggling to stay in business after the accounting scandal wiped out more than 90% of its value. The company has more than 40 local brands in more than 30 countries, according to its website.
On Thursday, a spokesperson for the fund manager referred Business Day to a Bloomberg screen grab revealing that the fund manager had sold off a substantial chunk of its shares, leaving it with 2.62% of the scandal-hit retail group. The company would give no further information.
It is unclear whether the "remaining position" referred only to Steinhoff shares held on behalf of Coronation’s institutional clients or to all of its clients. Business Day was unable to speak to Totaram about the letter. CEO Anton Pillay and chief investment officer Karl Leinberger did not respond to requests for comment on Thursday.
Coronation, which had one of the largest institutional exposures to Steinhoff, lost an estimated R14bn in the months after the December disclosure of "accounting irregularities".
In January, Leinberger wrote a detailed account of why Coronation had built up a hefty investment in Steinhoff. At that stage he wrote that stakeholders were in an information vacuum.
He said possible outcomes ranged from best-case scenario of tax evasion and inadequate disclosure of related-party transactions to a worst-case scenario of sophisticated fraud orchestrated by the CEO.
"The stock could just as easily be worth more than the current market price as it could be less. At current prices, we are therefore likely to retain our equity holding in the company until more information has been made available publicly," wrote Leinberger.
At that stage the share price had already slid to about R7. On Thursday it closed at R1.26.
Totaram told clients this week that the decision to sell would not prevent them from participating in any group legal action against Steinhoff.
"It is our intention to take appropriate legal action against Steinhoff on behalf of all clients who wish us to do so, and to the extent legally possible, against any other parties that were complicit in any wrongdoing." The information that contributed to Coronation’s reassessment of its Steinhoff exposure included Christo Wiese’s decision to sue the company for about R59bn.
"The sale of 6% of Steinhoff’s stake in Star through an accelerated book build for a consideration far below our assessment of fair value" had contributed to the reassessment, she said
This week the Steinhoff crisis spread wider as Dutch shareholder association VEB announced it had issued summons against Deloitte for its audit work at Steinhoff.
crottya@businesslive.co.za

Shooh a whole article to state the obvious.
Disposal fantastic as reduces burden, credit risk, improved margin, focus on other entities..etc
Article refers to snh assets as all loss making....only true if all financials lumped together and impairments included.
Legal cases quantum and balance sheet required to get a sense of valuation.
Snh will also aim to make recoveries which we may assume is minimum.
Great to see legal efforts against other parties with big pockets as this will be where most of the recoup will be made apart from some share recovery.
Its now a waiting game..
1. Agreement on restructure
2. Financials and balance sheet
3. Forensic report.

At the end of three years it may not be necessary to repay debt..............could refinance if the company is cleansed and there are some legal settlements.

We continue to pray for some recovery for shareholders and lots of profit for the bottom of barrel scrapers....



Sent from my SM-G950F using Sharenet Sharechat mobile app

[Bullhunter]

Steinhoff investors will not recoup their losses  

 BL PREMIUM

15 JUNE 2018 - 05:09 ANN CROTTY

Investors who lost billions of rand when Steinhoff International’s shares collapsed amid one of SA’s worst accounting scandals have very little chance of recouping their losses, according to one of the country’s largest fund managers.

Excluding Steinhoff Africa Retail (Star), which is in the process of changing its name to Pepkor as its seeks to distance itself from its scandal-hit parent, the businesses are "heavily loss-making" and "there’s little probability of material upside in the equity once Steinhoff repays its creditors and settles any potential legal claims", Coronation Fund Managers said.

In a letter to clients seen by Business Day, Kirshni Totaram, global head of institutional business at Coronation, said the company had sold its "remaining position in Steinhoff", prompted by an adjustment of the investment case to reflect additional information that had come to light since January. The extent of the overstatement of the historical profitability of Steinhoff was far worse than expected, she said.

It is unclear whether the 'remaining position' referred only to Steinhoff shares held on behalf of Coronation’s institutional clients or to all of its clients

It is a blow for Steinhoff, which is struggling to stay in business after the accounting scandal wiped out more than 90% of its value. The company has more than 40 local brands in more than 30 countries, according to its website.

On Thursday, a spokesperson for the fund manager referred Business Day to a Bloomberg screen grab revealing that the fund manager had sold off a substantial chunk of its shares, leaving it with 2.62% of the scandal-hit retail group. The company would give no further information.

It is unclear whether the "remaining position" referred only to Steinhoff shares held on behalf of Coronation’s institutional clients or to all of its clients. Business Day was unable to speak to Totaram about the letter. CEO Anton Pillay and chief investment officer Karl Leinberger did not respond to requests for comment on Thursday.

Coronation, which had one of the largest institutional exposures to Steinhoff, lost an estimated R14bn in the months after the December disclosure of "accounting irregularities".

In January, Leinberger wrote a detailed account of why Coronation had built up a hefty investment in Steinhoff. At that stage he wrote that stakeholders were in an information vacuum.

He said possible outcomes ranged from best-case scenario of tax evasion and inadequate disclosure of related-party transactions to a worst-case scenario of sophisticated fraud orchestrated by the CEO.

"The stock could just as easily be worth more than the current market price as it could be less. At current prices, we are therefore likely to retain our equity holding in the company until more information has been made available publicly," wrote Leinberger.

At that stage the share price had already slid to about R7. On Thursday it closed at R1.26.

Totaram told clients this week that the decision to sell would not prevent them from participating in any group legal action against Steinhoff.

"It is our intention to take appropriate legal action against Steinhoff on behalf of all clients who wish us to do so, and to the extent legally possible, against any other parties that were complicit in any wrongdoing." The information that contributed to Coronation’s reassessment of its Steinhoff exposure included Christo Wiese’s decision to sue the company for about R59bn.

"The sale of 6% of Steinhoff’s stake in Star through an accelerated book build for a consideration far below our assessment of fair value" had contributed to the reassessment, she said

This week the Steinhoff crisis spread wider as Dutch shareholder association VEB announced it had issued summons against Deloitte for its audit work at Steinhoff.

crottya@businesslive.co.za

[Ram85]

First of many disposals happening(i think anyway). Steinhoff is selling Kika/Leiner for around 450 mil euro.

 

Like Invest Novice said this is actually a good thing as that was a struggling entity and was not adding much value in terms of profits.

[Ram85]

Finally some good news, a few more creditors agree to stop the bloodshed. 

https://za.investing...-claims-1188732

 

Funny thing is that there is hardly any market/share price reaction...

[Snippit]

Cataclysmic crumplings - analysis most anal...

https://jsecharts.bl...gs-snh-jse.html

 

What cannot go much down may still not go much up.

 

[Investment novice]

Steinhoff International gets creditor support for two finance vehicles.

This is good news. Especially, if you look at the attached screenshot and the 50+ mil volume in trades

This is very interesting. Pls dont be fooled in thinking all creditors will support though i do personally think that will happen.
What is more interesting is the price jump and profit taking...will expect to see lots of this...
And ..the quantumof buyers coming in sure..is a sign that many are waiting on the sidelines to get in...may see significant movements in either direction...

You may also request the full shareholding directly from steinhoff investment relations. They will provide you a full list of all their shareholders and the shareholding as at end May.
You will need to look through the information and compare to previous months an importantly to Dec.
Compushare provides similar information. Do your own analysis and dont rely on opinion and fake news

Recent articles testament....market goes bananas with 50%...a 50c recovery compared to a 5000c loss..is not a market going crazy.....another article...snh is an sa enron...perhaps a SA versio of tycos that had a similar catastrophe in the early 2000...but not an enron...

I have been commenting and posting based on my own research..consultation with analysts lawyears and travels to germany and netherlands....

Be good to get robust discussion albeit overwhelming fraud and lack of information.

I have also invested and continue to buy as this is part of my high risk allocation of a balanced diverse multi asset portfolio.

Hopefully sa investors will have sufficient liquidity to jump on the bandwagon with trend reversal and shareholders that have lost in the past can have an opportunity to recoup through recovery and new holdings when signs of stability present itself.

You will argue that the legal quantum is yet to be to be defined. The market has already priced in doomsday...a settlement is likely and only after a full and thorough investigation and trabsferanc of blame on other parties including Deloitte and banks that suported the pepkor assets and steinhof tie up. Snh will only be liable for a perhaps 5 to 10 prcent of the total claim. Hence all affected will sue to get a piece of the action including shareholders including coronation..sgareholders as you know would be foolish to sue themselves...as their best bet for value is recovery...
There are plenty of corporate case studies that support a realistic journey....many yeas in court and finally settlment....perhaps this is why there is still an investment case here...get in cheap....lock down for 5 years and see astronomical returns even at 1.20 a share.
Risk a loss of r1.20 versus a gain of 10 to 30x over 5 years....this is my investment philosophy currently....


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[Procrastinator]

Hi. you have to get shareholding register from computicket. I looked at the end of april. Have not reviewed end of may. Other readers may have this and can share with you...its interesting the journ alists are not tracking this.
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Computicket is a ticket booking business.
If you say that institutional shareholders are buying script in this counter just interested in the source of this info.
If you are referencing computershare, they look pretty dodge to me, lots of complaints about them on the web, think I would be circumspect about making financial decisions based on info from this company.
Last i heard Coronation was instigating litigation against SNH, not buying more shares.

I must be missing something here.

[Investment novice]

Hi I.N. , where are you getting the info of these institutions increasing their shareholdings from, where do I find this shareholders register of which you speak ? Gotta link ?

Ta.

Hi. you have to get shareholding register from computicket. I looked at the end of april. Have not reviewed end of may. Other readers may have this and can share with you...its interesting the journ alists are not tracking this.

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[Procrastinator]

disclaimer- posts to stimulate constructive discussion- may be negative or positive. I am personally invested in shares- this is an extremely high risk share to trade in which could be zero valued
 
Icassim- pls could you review the shareholding register for end May- has AG; coronation , investec and discovery increased their holding?
also wiese says that he has a valuation on the snh share- can you pls evaluate if his companies- upington or new entities have increased shareholding
be interesting to know who purchased the 200m shares last week.
city bank had purchased snh debt on behalf of a client - pls can you evaluate if they have increased their shareholding from end April
 
your thoughts on the above would be welcomed- Ta

Hi I.N. , where are you getting the info of these institutions increasing their shareholdings from, where do I find this shareholders register of which you speak ? Gotta link ?

Ta.

[Ram85]

Steinhoff International gets creditor support for two finance vehicles.

 

This is good news. Especially, if you look at the attached screenshot and the 50+ mil volume in trades

Attached Files

•  2018-06-07 14_50_23-SNHJ _ Steinhoff International Holdings Ltd Share - Investing.com ZA.png   30.92KB   32 downloads

[Investment novice]

disclaimer- posts to stimulate constructive discussion- may be negative or positive. I am personally invested in shares- this is an extremely high risk share to trade in which could be zero valued

 

Icassim- pls could you review the shareholding register for end May- has AG; coronation , investec and discovery increased their holding?

also wiese says that he has a valuation on the snh share- can you pls evaluate if his companies- upington or new entities have increased shareholding

be interesting to know who purchased the 200m shares last week.

city bank had purchased snh debt on behalf of a client - pls can you evaluate if they have increased their shareholding from end April

 

your thoughts on the above would be welcomed- Ta

 

 

 

 

[Investment novice]

Thats gotta be good advice. Last time I did this averaging down the cost thing it cost me big time and still never came back 8 years later.
It cost nought to observe the price action for signs of staying alive at least. The reality remains that the downtrend can easily go to zero, permanently.
All this posting to the contrary is for encouraging others to be reckless, like the incessant loser presents as erudite.
Totally fake erudite unless at least a hint of a base. Simply a mindless gamble, nothing more and nothing less.

See previous posts...comments not to advise others to invest however only to stimulate constructive discussion on fundamentals. I have a capped amount and look to buy once more at 70c. When or if the number is breached.

Look for Pollys advice on when to get in. Now is extremely high risk...and would not advise anyone to invest unless they can tolerate the loss and its part of their overall strategy.





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[Spree]

From post below : "...fast women, slow horses,...". Hahaha😂